Judaism-Christianity

neoinarien wrote:Haha, ok, sounds good.

And yes: I did specifically recall that you would not be on Saturdays from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

I guess I would be interested in hearing about G-d not taking an appearance.

I hope you passed a peaceful holy day.

Actually, we had sudden tragic death in our community Friday night. I'm on my way to the shivah house to visit with the family, we are all very close.

I'll be back in a while.

BTW... whenever a Jew studies Torah... if he is truly studying and has kevanah... he is never alone. So.. hehe... the cards are stacked in my favor!

What happened to the debate?

Philip wrote:What happened to the debate?

I am awaiting response.

Interesting, I thought I was waiting for your questions.

I think we can go pasuk for pasuk... I don't think I need backup from the Chachomim.

So what exactly are we waiting for?

Ok. Let's pick up on the G-d and physical form which seems to be a fairly fundamental yet somewhat more narrow topic.

So your position is that G-d has not take a physical form ever? Or that He cannot?

What pasuk is bothering you in particular?

G-d of course, can take any form He wishes. There is no evidence to support your claim that He has taken human form (from the Torah). There are pasukim that refer to His feet, hands, arms, his back, but none that refer to Him as a human in form.

Oh, haha, I certainly have no problem with G-d being able to take a physical form. I simply recalled that as being a point of contention at some point.

Perhaps I am mistaken?

neoinarien wrote:Oh, haha, I certainly have no problem with G-d being able to take a physical form. I simply recalled that as being a point of contention at some point.

Perhaps I am mistaken?

As Huddy said though, the Torah never mentions G-d as having a human form. and it is also very clear that G-d never was nor ever will be a man.
Also,When Moshe asks God to show him His glory, and when He says He will pass before Moshe, this is explicitly fulfilled in Sh'mot 34:5-7. No literal body. G-dd is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that G-d assumes human form makes G-d small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "G-d is not a man." (Numbers 23:19)
From Aish's article on Maimonides 3rd principle that G-d is Incorporeal:

We believe that this Oneness is neither a body nor a bodily force, nor is He subject to any bodily characteristics -- movement, rest, or dwelling -- be they inherent or by chance. Therefore the Sages repudiated [the possibility of any] cohesion or separation [concerning Him], as they said: "Above there is no sitting, standing, division, or 'cohesion'" (a usage based on Isaiah 11:14). As the prophet (ibid., 40:18-25) said: "Who is comparable to the Almighty...?" For if He had a body, He could be compared to other bodies.

All the corporeal terms used in the Scriptures to describe Him -- such as walking, standing, sitting, speaking etc. -- are metaphorical. As the Sages have said: "The Torah speaks in the language of man."

This is the third Principle, as affirmed by the verse (Deuteronomy 4:15) "You have not seen any image," that is to say, you cannot conceive of Him as having any form because, as stated, He is neither a body nor a bodily force.

What is Sh'mot?

neoinarien wrote:What is Sh'mot?

Exodus

Ok, thanks.

I'll wait for Yehudah to reply so I can do both at once, unless you're speaking for him.

Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Mountains do not have mouths to sing nor trees to clap their hands..... more metaphors.

neoinarien wrote:Ok, thanks.

I'll wait for Yehudah to reply so I can do both at once, unless you're speaking for him.

Wouldn't say I am "speaking for him" but the Torah is pretty clear that G-d himself is not and never will be a man and we should never think of him in those terms.

Arik S. wrote:

neoinarien wrote:Ok, thanks.

I'll wait for Yehudah to reply so I can do both at once, unless you're speaking for him.

Wouldn't say I am "speaking for him" but the Torah is pretty clear that G-d himself is not and never will be a man and we should never think of him in those terms.

Right, I understand. I just want to get everything grouped together: easier for everyone this way.

Just got back from Baltimore (shopping), and it's been a long night/day. Left Motsei Shabbos and got there around 1AM... shopped all day and drove home.

Arik is correct, so is Philip.

Is there a certain pasuk that trips your trigger we can discuss?

Yehudah wrote:Just got back from Baltimore (shopping), and it's been a long night/day. Left Motsei Shabbos and got there around 1AM... shopped all day and drove home.

Arik is correct, so is Philip.

Is there a certain pasuk that trips your trigger we can discuss?

There is no one verse, I just wanted to make sure we can do everyone on one side, then the other, rather than tons of micro back-and-forth.

Fair enough: G-d told Moshe that NO MAN can SEE HIS presence and live.

So even "IF" G-d decided to come down as a physical man in a physical mans' body, the person He would have come to would never have lived to tell the story.

Again, which pasukim are bothering you?

Moshe=Moses
Pasukim=verses (plural)

Correct?

Yessir

If you want to discuss whether or not G-d has a body, start a new thread. We've let this one languish long enough.

Yehudah wrote:If you want to discuss whether or not G-d has a body, start a new thread. We've let this one languish long enough.

Well, what you just posited is an entirely separate question. Whether G-d has a body is entirely different from saying that G-d may or has taken a corporeal form.

There is nothing in the Torah to state that G-d would ever take on a human form. G-d had made it clear he was not a man, and that we saw no image of Him and therefore should never try making a likeness of Him. The concept of man as G-d is not of Jewish origin and never will be.
How can G-d take on a corporeal form? How can the infinite become finite? How can the incorporeal become corporeal?

Arik S. wrote:
How can G-d take on a corporeal form? How can the infinite become finite? How can the incorporeal become corporeal?

Well (keeping things simple for now), how can you or I place limits on what G-d can do? Are you saying it's outside of His power to become corporeal, or partly corporeal, etc?

While it would be silly to say that we can control what G-d can or will do, we can say this: G-d wrote the Torah.

Because G-d wrote the Torah, anything He says in it is Law. He says we will not add or subtract not one letter from it. That means it is rock solid and stands for eternity.

So.. the question is silly. Of course we can't as men determine what G-d will or will not do.

Leaving aside, for a moment, the textual rebuttals to the verses put forth, let me ask another question that, while certainly related to the discussion, is also of general curiosity.

Can G-d change his mind?