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    walker

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    Jewish view

    Post  walker on Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:35 pm

    I was raise Christian and I was taught from a small child that Jewish people don't need to be "saved" because they have a special convent with G-D. (now I know that not all Christians have the same point of view but I'm just stating how I was raised)

    my question is what is the opinion of most Jews about Christians? Will we make it to heaven and see Him?
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    Yehudah

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Yehudah on Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:52 pm

    This is a delicate subject, keep in mind that just as christians have thier view of how to get to Heaven, Jews do as well.

    There is an easy, and there is a longer answer.

    First the easy answer:
    Any non-Jew who worships only the ONE G-d (and nothing else), will have a share in Heaven.

    The longer answer:
    The first commandment spells it out clearly: Anochi Hashem Elochechah (I am Hashem YOUR G-d).

    Chazal (our sages) as well as the Torah itself teaches us that there is only ONE G-d. Any person who worships a man, animal, or inanimate object as a G-d is performing avodah zarah (idol worship). Avodah zarah is strictly forbidden in every sense by G-d.

    Okay, so it wasn't that much longer. What a Face

    The bottom line is this (pretty much): Jews received Torah at Sinai, and G-d promised a share of Heaven to every Jew by virtue of being Jewish. I'd say that there could be exceptions to those Jews who were mass murderers, etc. Non-Jews on the otherhand don't get a share automatically. The 7 Laws of Noah were given to the nations when the Ark landed. All non-Jews are bound to those laws. If a non-Jew follows those laws, they are assured of a place in Heaven.

    This could be a pretty good debate should you decide to participate. It has been a subject that I've had long conversations about.


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    Arik
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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Arik on Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:30 pm

    Glad to see you accepted my invite Walker. I Look forward to your participation here. Welcome to the forums.

    walker

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  walker on Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:43 am

    thanks Arik, I'm glad to be here, I appreciate the invite and the chance to learn

    Okay so, let's leave behind the obvious difference (i.e. the view that Jesus = avodah zarah) and talk about the 7 laws of Noah.

    I think they are:

    # Prohibition of Idolatry
    # Prohibition of Murder
    # Prohibition of Theft
    # Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity
    # Prohibition of Blasphemy
    # Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
    # Requirement to have just Laws

    or according to Wikipedia

    So if a person was Buddhist they could to heaven, no believe in G-d, against murder, stealing, promiscuity, couldn't blaspheme because they wouldn't know what to say, most or vegetarians.

    What about Muslims? they tend to follow a lot of these laws. my understanding is they follow all of them. they consider Mohamed a prophet not a g-d.

    am I on the right track?
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    Yehudah

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Yehudah on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:31 pm

    Good observations, but not quite.

    So simply put, if you abide by the 7 Laws, or if you are Jewish, your portion is assured. This assumes that you are abiding by the laws and living a righteous life.

    Muslims believe in "allah", but they also believe in jsus, and mohammed (but not as gods but as prophets), etc... so no, they don't really believe the same things. They are similar, but not the same.


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    walker

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  walker on Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:48 pm

    maybe I misstated my understanding. Can a person be a muslim, follow the 7 laws and get their portion? or is being a muslim contradictory to the 7 laws?

    is is contradictory because believing Jesus and Mohammed to be prophets (but not gods) violates the laws?

    or is it that the allah they serve is not the same as G_d? (I have an opinion on that too, but that is a different discussion)

    I am trying to clarify which part violates the 7 laws and why.
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    Yehudah

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Yehudah on Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:21 pm

    walker wrote:maybe I misstated my understanding. Can a person be a muslim, follow the 7 laws and get their portion? or is being a muslim contradictory to the 7 laws?

    is is contradictory because believing Jesus and Mohammed to be prophets (but not gods) violates the laws?

    or is it that the allah they serve is not the same as G_d? (I have an opinion on that too, but that is a different discussion)

    I am trying to clarify which part violates the 7 laws and why.
    A human can be a human and observe the 7 laws.... if you classify a person as muslim, then they are muslim, which is a religious affilation. So no, a muslim wouldn't follow the 7 laws to start with, if they did, they wouldn't be muslim.


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    walker

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  walker on Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:33 am

    is it because Islam violates one or more of the seven laws

    or is because of (other than Judaism) an affiliation with any religion (not just Islam) violates one of the laws?

    in other words could a person be a Buddhist? a Scientologist? (Hindu is out, I know)

    I'm not very schooled in Islam so I can not tell you which law it may violate although some with sects it is quite obvious. murder, unjust laws, ect. But what if you were just a non-observant, hard working, go to work everyday, live and let live Muslim, that lived in a country that had just laws? you tried to do your best to do what was right and make the world a better place for everyone?
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    Yehudah

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Yehudah on Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:22 pm

    A muslim can't believe in false prophets, or the destruction of mankind, and believe in G-d ...and get a pass to Shamayim.

    Any practice that requires you to worship something OTHER than G-d is avodah zarah. So, budhism, taoism, hindism, islam, christianity, mormonism, eieio... are all avodah zarah according to Torah.


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    walker

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  walker on Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:59 pm

    okay false prophets. (that leads to another thread)

    What if someone had never heard of the 7 laws. would they still be judged by the same standard as someone who had? What if they had never heard of the One True G_d?
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    Arik
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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Arik on Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:17 am

    Accoroding to Sophie, Yehuda, on Messiah truth. Muslums do in fact follow the Noahide laws whether they realize it or not. Although obviously there are some that do not i.e. those who bomb innocent people or blow themselves up.
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    Arik
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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Arik on Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:20 am

    walker wrote:okay false prophets. (that leads to another thread)

    What if someone had never heard of the 7 laws. would they still be judged by the same standard as someone who had? What if they had never heard of the One True G_d?

    I think that G-d is quite intelligent and knows where to draw the line between who is and who is not a righteous Gentile.
    If someone is living in the jungles of Africa and has never heard of the G-d of Abraham, does G-d judge them harshly? I think G-d is always fair. Our relationship with G-d is mostly affected by our relationship with other people so if someone does not work eveil to others and lives fairly and justly, then yes i believe he has a portion. (read Ezekiel Ch. 18)
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    Yehudah

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Yehudah on Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:05 pm

    What a great site messiahtruth is.... I read that thread actually.

    She's right... so are you. I stand corrected. alien


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    Arik
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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Arik on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:45 pm

    More on the 7 Laws Walker:

    1. Do not murder - (Bereshit) Genesis 4:23-24, 9:6
    2. Do not worship other gods - (Bereshit) Genesis 4:26
    3. Do not take G-d's name in vain - (Bereshit) Genesis 4:26
    4. Abstain from deviant sex - (Bereshit) Genesis 1:28, 4:22, 6:3, 6:12
    5. Establish courts of law - (Bereshit) Genesis 1:28, 9:6
    6. Do not steal - (Bereshit) Genesis 6:11
    7. Do not eat meat off of a living animal - (Bereshit) Genesis 9:4

    These are universal
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    Arik
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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Arik on Mon May 07, 2012 9:51 am

    From these seven laws our Sages derived the following 66 laws:

    1. MURDER:
    (1) against anyone murdering anyone. [Some say that this also prohibits Lashon HaRa, evil speech.]

    2. THEFT:
    (1) against stealing;
    (2) against committing robbery
    (3).against shifting a land mark;
    (4) against cheating;
    (5) against repudiating a claim of money owed;
    (6) against overcharging;
    (7).against coveting;
    (Cool against desiring;
    (9) a laborer shall be allowed to eat of the fruits among which he works (under certain conditions);
    (10) against a laborer eating of such fruit (when certain conditions are not met);
    (11) against a laborer taking of such fruit home;
    (12) against kidnapping;
    (13) against the use of false weights and measures;
    (14) against the possession of false weights and measures;
    (15) that one shall be exact in the use of weights and measures; and
    (16) that the robber shall return (or pay for) the stolen object.

    3. ILLICIT INTERCOURSE:
    (1) against (a man) having union with his mother;
    (2) against (a man) having union with his sister; (3) against (a man) having union with the wife of his father;
    (4) against (a man) having union with another man's wife;
    (5) against (a man) copulating with a beast;
    (6) against a woman copulating with a beast;
    (7) against (a man) lying carnally with a male;
    (Cool.against (a man) lying carnally with his father;
    (9) against (a man) lying carnally with his father's brother; and
    (10) against engaging in erotic conduct that may lead to a prohibited union.
    [Some have suggested that this list should also forbid intercourse with a woman who is Niddah. The Shulchan Aruch also has a chapter about adulterous thinking and discharging one's seed in vain, which is also forbidden.]

    4. LIMB OF A LIVING CREATURE:
    (1) against eating a limb severed from a living animal, beast, or fowl; and
    (2) against eating the flesh of any animal which was torn by a wild beast, which, in part, prohibits the eating of such flesh as it was torn off an animal while it was still alive.

    5. IDOLATRY:
    (1) against entertaining the thought that there exists a deity except HaShem;
    (2) against making any graven image (and against having anyone else make one for us);
    (3) against making idols for use by others;
    (4) against making any forbidden statues (even when they are for ornamental purposes);
    (5) against bowing to any idol (and not to sacrifice nor to pour libation nor to burn incense before any idol, even where it is not the customary manner of worship to the particular idol);
    (6) against worshipping idols in any of their customary manners of worship;
    (7) against causing our children to pass (through the fire) in the worship of Molech;
    (Cool against practicing Ov;
    (9) against the practice of Yiddoni [Sorcerer, Soothsayer, Magician]; and
    (10) against turning to idolatry (in word, in thought, in deed, or by any observance that may draw us to its worship).

    6. BLASPHEMY:
    (1) to acknowledge the existence of HaShem;
    (2) to fear HaShem;
    (3) to pray to HaShem;
    (4) to sanctify HaShem's name (in face of death, where appropriate);
    (5) against desecrating HaShem's name (even in face of death, when appropriate);
    (6) to study the Torah;
    (7) to honor the scholars, and to revere one's teacher; and
    (Cool against blaspheming.

    7. JUSTICE:
    (1) to appoint judges and officers in each and every community;
    (2) to treat the litigants equally before the law;
    (3) to inquire diligently into the testimony of a witness;
    (4) against the wanton miscarriage of justice by the court;
    (5) against the judge accepting a bribe or gift from a litigant;
    (6) against the judge showing marks of honor to but one litigant;
    (7) against the judge acting in fear of a litigant's threats;
    (Cool against the judge, out of compassion, favoring a poor litigant;
    (9) against the judge discriminating against the litigant because he is a sinner;
    (10) against the judge, out of softness, putting aside the penalty of a mauler or killer;
    (11) against the judge discriminating against a stranger or an orphan;
    (12) against the judge hearing one litigant in the absence of the other;
    (13) against appointing a judge who lacks knowledge of the Law;
    (14) against the court killing an innocent man;
    (15) against incrimination by circumstantial evidence;
    (16) against punishing for a crime committed under duress;
    (17) that the court is to administer the death penalty by the sword;
    (18) against anyone taking the law into his own hands to kill the perpetrator of a capital crime (this point is disagreed upon by different writers: "The Noachides are not restricted in this way but may judge singly and at once.");
    (19) to testify in court; and
    (20) against testifying falsely.



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    juggy4711

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  juggy4711 on Sun May 20, 2012 9:36 pm

    I think I comprehend all of those except 3.10. and all of 6.

    3.10 seems vague. What constitutes erotic conduct that may lead to a prohibited union?
    Does spilling one's seed in vain mean ejaculating without the possibility of producing a child? Also of note, I notice that women carnally laying with women is not addressed.

    As for 6 I'm completely confused. Does it mean that gentiles must

    (1) acknowledge the existence of God
    (2) fear God
    (3) pray to God
    (4) sanctify God's name (in face of death, where appropriate);
    (5) not desecrate God's name (even in face of death, when appropriate);
    (6) study the Torah;
    (7) severely confused as to what this one means.
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    Arik
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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Arik on Wed May 23, 2012 2:02 pm

    juggy4711 wrote:I think I comprehend all of those except 3.10. and all of 6.

    3.10 seems vague. What constitutes erotic conduct that may lead to a prohibited union?
    Does spilling one's seed in vain mean ejaculating without the possibility of producing a child? Also of note, I notice that women carnally laying with women is not addressed.

    As for 6 I'm completely confused. Does it mean that gentiles must

    (1) acknowledge the existence of God
    (2) fear God
    (3) pray to God
    (4) sanctify God's name (in face of death, where appropriate);
    (5) not desecrate God's name (even in face of death, when appropriate);
    (6) study the Torah;
    (7) severely confused as to what this one means.

    Well lets look at erotic behavior that could lead to a prohibited union..

    Adultery by Halachic definition is cohabitation with a married woman. This technically would mean intercourse. However, it would also be prohibited to say "make-out" with a married woman as well since it could lead to intercourse.
    There is even a rabbinic prohibition against Jews even being secluded with a married woman.

    As to the other part of your first line of questioning..

    "Be fruitful and Multiply"
    The sages take this as a commandment so it is considered a mitzvah to procreate. the rabbis frown on "wasting seed" because it's not following that commandment.


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    Arik
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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Arik on Wed May 23, 2012 2:04 pm

    juggy4711 wrote:I think I comprehend all of those except 3.10. and all of 6.

    3.10 seems vague. What constitutes erotic conduct that may lead to a prohibited union?
    Does spilling one's seed in vain mean ejaculating without the possibility of producing a child? Also of note, I notice that women carnally laying with women is not addressed.

    As for 6 I'm completely confused. Does it mean that gentiles must

    (1) acknowledge the existence of God
    (2) fear God
    (3) pray to God
    (4) sanctify God's name (in face of death, where appropriate);
    (5) not desecrate God's name (even in face of death, when appropriate);
    (6) study the Torah;
    (7) severely confused as to what this one means.

    Well lets look at erotic behavior that could lead to a prohibited union..

    Adultery by Halachic definition is cohabitation with a married woman. This technically would mean intercourse. However, it would also be prohibited to say "make-out" with a married woman as well since it could lead to intercourse.
    There is even a rabbinic prohibition against Jews even being secluded with a married woman.

    As to the other part of your first line of questioning..

    "Be fruitful and Multiply"
    The sages take this as a commandment so it is considered a mitzvah to procreate. the rabbis frown on "wasting seed" because it's not following that commandment.

    Is it 6:7 that's confusing you are 7:7?


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    juggy4711

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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  juggy4711 on Wed May 23, 2012 8:56 pm

    Ok 3.10 I get now, but why the absence of women laying carnally with women?

    It was 6.7. It's the "and against blaspheming" part that is throwing me off. Not sure how it relates to the honor the scholars part and who the scholars are?

    What about 6.1-6.6 Are those all thing gentiles are required to do?

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    Arik
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    Re: Jewish view

    Post  Arik on Thu May 24, 2012 10:56 am

    juggy4711 wrote:Ok 3.10 I get now, but why the absence of women laying carnally with women?

    It was 6.7. It's the "and against blaspheming" part that is throwing me off. Not sure how it relates to the honor the scholars part and who the scholars are?

    What about 6.1-6.6 Are those all thing gentiles are required to do?


    I agree, there it is a bit shady as to what it means. In my own words, A person who has dedicated himself to the study of Torah for the purpose of properly teaching Torah is in a sense an emissary of G-d and should be treated as such. perhaps that is where it would fit along that category.

    As to 7, this is speaking to the gentile nations as a whole that they should establish a court of justice. Obviously one individual may well not have any experience in their lives with each and every one of these categories.


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