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    No intermediaries, even on Yom Kipper

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    Arik
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    No intermediaries, even on Yom Kipper

    Post  Arik on Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:51 pm

    Chrstians always bring up Yom Kippur when we speak of the lack of intermediaries, so now is a good time to apply it.

    The Kohain HaGadol would be the holiest person, one who prepared for weeks to make sure that he was pure and without sin. He would enter the mishkan, and then present an offering.

    But that offering of a bovine was not for the Jewish people, but it was for him and his family. Before he could act as an agent of the Jewish people, he needed to remove what sin he had, before presenting their case. A sinner who would carry the sins of the people to the Holy of Holies. And then he was not a sinner, and then neither were they.

    We also read in Isaiah 54 that the servant will also bring a chatat, a personal sin offering to the temple. And like the high priest, he too will need to clense himself, for nobody is perfect. Perhaps it is because of the war, that he became tamai with the blood of our enemies. It isn't clear from the text.

    It is clear, however, that there will be a war, and there will be blood spilled, and that the leaders of the nations who oppressed the Jewish people will be brought forth to pay for their evil, and all of their wealth will be taken from them and be given to ..:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Israel.

    On Yom Kippur two goats were selected. One was sacrificed to purify the Temple of any accidental defilement and the other was SENT ALIVE INTO THE WILDERNESS. How does it carry away the sins? It does so because "And he shall confess on it, all the transgressions of Israel." (Leviticus 16:21).


    It is the repentence over the goat that took away the sins. This second goat is the goat for Azazel and it was NOT killed. It carried the sins of the people away but the key here is that it was NOT sacrificed.

    As a point of interest, we speak of Amalek, the descendant of Esav, the Edmonites. And Rome/Greek is also called Edom in Rabbinical literature, and in "The Kuzari", Rabbi Yehudah ben Levi, when referring to the Muslims, calls them Ishmael, and calls the Chrstians Edom.

    Here is a question:

    If Edom, that which sought out the destruction of the Jewish people for so long, may be considered the Church, she that sought the extermination of the Jewish people, torturing, massacring, stealing from, and exiling, what actions do you think the Moshiach will take against such a structure? If, as Isaiah 52 say, that those who were lied to by their leaders will see the truth, that they had been lied to, these enemies of the Jews, does this not say that the Chrstians will realize that the Church had lied to them all of this time? Could it be that Jsus is applied to Isaiah 53 only in the respect that what spawned off of him was so sinful that it will be brought to task, eliminated, and it's fortunes returned to the Jews, those fortunes that it maintains to this day and is unwilling to relinquish?

    Just as Chrstians see Jsus as the suffering servant, could not the Church be the enemy that will fall?

    And since the Moshiach needs to be a Jew, which side will he take? Those who wear an idol around their neck and sought the death of Jews, or those who refused to worship him and survived centuries of persecution from them?

    You have to understand what "atone" means. But that's a lot of typing. So let's just say that one goes from a state of being owned and into a state of being free of sin and leave it at that.

    However, the High priest needs to also atone just before then, to bring his own private sin offering, because as pure as he is, he is also tainted. And thus only he is permitted to be where he is, and only he is permitted to say the sacred name of G-d that is spoken once a year, and then he brings forth his prayer.

    But without the atonement of the individuals, it doesn't mean that those who did nothing are forgiven. But that he represents the people, and they need to do their part.

    Nobody prays to him. Nobody sees him. Nobody imagines him. Nobody considers him to be anything other than a "sheliach" (one who sends).

    Oppose this to Chrstianity who considers a form to be G-d, who considers this form to be not simply an intermediary but to also be G-d! They imagine him, the speak with him, they worship him.

    This action has ZERO relevance to what the high priest did, because Chrstianity believes that Chrst causes all sin to be forgiven, while the Kohain doesn't have anywhere near that power, because the Kohain isn't G-d!

    This "Yom Kippur" misdrection comes up a lot from Chrstian who try to justify the use of Intermediaries, while ignoring that the halacah of Judaism forbids intermediaries, as well as even praying to an angel. There is no comparison because so long as you hold that Jesus is also G-d, you cannot compare a creation to the Creator!
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    Yehudah

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    Re: No intermediaries, even on Yom Kipper

    Post  Yehudah on Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:07 pm

    The simple answer is that Moshiach will take the side of the Jewish people, and of G-d, or he can't be considered Moshiach.

    It doesn't matter who the enemies are in the end, they will all pay, or they will all convert.

    To me, there doesn't need to be any philosophy about this subject. The Torah (via Neviim) is very clear about what Moshiachs' job is.


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    Philip

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    Re: No intermediaries, even on Yom Kipper

    Post  Philip on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:44 pm

    I have read somewhere that when Moshiach is revealed, that Muslims will tear down their Mosques and the christians will tear down their churches in shame and anger at being lied to. This may be a reference from the talmud can't remember.

    I do have a question about intermediaries. I have seen some Jews pray to their dead Rebbes for favors. This so much smacks of the Catholic practice of praying to Saints that I wondered you guys thought about it?
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    Yehudah

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    Re: No intermediaries, even on Yom Kipper

    Post  Yehudah on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:56 pm

    Avodah zarah has many faces. Jews worshipping their Rabbaim like some of the Lubavichers' do (in my opinion) is a travesty. I've seen weekly flyers with statements on the bottom of them that reference the "Rebbe" like he was Moshiach.

    What a shame.


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