So I am at the bank today....

Arik S. wrote:I am at the teller's desk and she strikes up a conversation with me. I am wearing my Magen David necklace and as we were talking, I mention something about my rabbi so she asks "are you Jewish?" ( no I am actually a Baptist, I just happen to have a rabbi lady )
I said "yes"
she says: "oh ok, you don't look Jewish ( we must all look the same)
I say: "Oh, what do we look like?"
She says: "like my husband, they are very distinctive looking."
I say: "dear, there all all kinds of Jews from every corner of the globe, we don't all look alike."
The she goes on to tell me she is a Catholic, and that her hisband was an "observant" Jew at one time but "came to c*rist"
I was floored. She told me some members of his family no longer speak to them since he married her and she converted him to Catholocism. She actually seemed proud of herself. I was disgusted with the whole conversation.

neoinarien wrote:Maybe it is a sin according to your beliefs: not Christianity's.

Yehudah wrote:

neoinarien wrote:Maybe it is a sin according to your beliefs: not Christianity's.

And really, it is. Because according to "chrstianity", the "old testament" stands and isn't disputed. If any part of it is disputed, then it is then a distortion of G-ds' word.

I didn't write 'em.... I just lovingly abide by them.

neoinarien wrote:

Why shouldn't she?

To her thinking, she brought a soul into the light.

Should she be sad?

Arik S. wrote:

neoinarien wrote:

Why shouldn't she?

To her thinking, she brought a soul into the light.

Should she be sad?

To me, the man is like Essau. But Essau sold hi birthright to his brother where this man sold it to what most would say is an idolater.
according to her, he was an observant Jew for a long time before he met her. Then he meets her and much like was outlined in Tractate Sanhedrin and documented in Tanach, this woman who worships idols (and I am sorry, but catholics worship idols) seduces him with her body and takes his soul with Avodah Zara.
If she is a Catholic, that is fine, but what is her big thing about getting someone to change their religion? Religion to me, is not a T-shirt you just change with the seasons.
I wasn;t so much angry at her but with this man who was willing to trade his faith for a taste of shiksa skirt. Sorry but to me that's lame.

neoinarien wrote:

Red:
The big deal is that, in her view, she has helped to bring this person closer to G-d. You may say this is wrong, or even a sin, but it doesn't change the fact that this is her view.

I agree: religion is not a t-shirt to be changed. But that doesn't mean that people can have true changes in their faith, right?

I hate to say this but in all likely hood the guy probably was lukewarm, at best, about his faith and converted to keep his significant other who was perhaps more involved in her own happy. We have probably all seen this happen more times than we would like to (especially these days amongst Protestant sects, hopping from one to another).


Blue:
And since when do Catholics worship idols? I don't recall ever worshiping an idol...

Arik S. wrote:

neoinarien wrote:

Red:
The big deal is that, in her view, she has helped to bring this person closer to G-d. You may say this is wrong, or even a sin, but it doesn't change the fact that this is her view.

I agree: religion is not a t-shirt to be changed. But that doesn't mean that people can have true changes in their faith, right?

I hate to say this but in all likely hood the guy probably was lukewarm, at best, about his faith and converted to keep his significant other who was perhaps more involved in her own happy. We have probably all seen this happen more times than we would like to (especially these days amongst Protestant sects, hopping from one to another).


Blue:
And since when do Catholics worship idols? I don't recall ever worshiping an idol...

You had to have been there. Her attitude seemed to be that she was proud that she got him to take on HER religion and give up his own. To me that is despicable.

You ahve said correctly, you should read what you wrote: converted to keep his significant other who was perhaps more involved in her own happy.

That is exactly my problem with him. it more than likely wasn't even a valid conversion to Xtianity anyway, but a way to keep his wife happy with little respect to either religion. They both give me a sick feeling.

I have seen Catholics bowing and kneeling and praying to statues of "Saints" Angels and jsus. That is Idol worship and so is worshiping men living or dead, in place of G-d.

neoinarien wrote:
I was looking for a smiley face, and noticed the santa. If an emoticon really, truly disturbs you that much then first I suggest that you remove it from the emoticon options or at the very least post something in the rules about disallowing it rather than simply ambushing someone who uses it as "crass".

In yet another gesture of respect, one that rarely goes reciprocated from you Yehudah (again, using Christianity in lower case, not capitalizing J-sus, etc), I'll not use the santa smiley further.

I won't throw out the 'hater' adjective that you referenced above, but you've demonstrated a persistent and ongoing pattern on this forum in threads where I have been involved of disrespect towards everything except your own brand of conservative/orthodox Judaism (forgive me as I am not 100% sure what exact sect you identify with... nothing is intended by guessing here, and if I knew for sure, I would've have used it in lieu of the words "your brand... Judaism").

And as much as I may disagree with most missionaries because their views differ from my own, I can hardly begrudge them from trying. I think it's a pretty smug view to say, "yes, G-d loves us and not you and NOTHING you do about it will make you one of us. We're a special club and G-d doesn't want you." That is not the G-d of love that Christianity talks about.

It is out of love (well, hopefully at least) that Christians evangelize much like they did ever since the New Testament. Their goal (ideally) is to bring people closer/to G-d. Obviously any competing faith/sect/cult is going to take a dim view of missionaries from other groups. But I don't have a "huge problem" with them.

Just as obviously, members from competing faiths/sects/cults are going to feel that the missionary not of their group is pulling their members away from G-d rather than towards them. But every group harbors those feelings/beliefs to varying degrees.

As for the oppression part: you're right, I don't. Everyone's faith has been oppressed at various points, perhaps most points. Christianity began as a religion covered in the blood of the martyrs (all but one of the apostles were killed as martyrs, let alone J-sus being crucified). Even today there remains literally daily stories of Christians being killed around the globe on the basis of their beliefs. There were countless wars of religion, both from within and without Europe and Christendom, etc, and even at the very 'best' of times when people were relatively free to practice Christianity, I think if you were to ask a Protestant they would recoil at the notion of a religiously free Catholic Europe.

I think EVERYONE has a lineage of being oppressed. The difference is that whereas Judaism speaks with a voice through the millennia (I'd say a single voice but I assume it's not a contested fact here that Jewish sects have existed at odds with one another for at least a few thousand years and likely longer), the Scottish Picts do not have that voice to retell the story of thousands of years of resisting aggression, etc, or the Franks dealing with the Visigoths, etc.

Even if we look at Jewish history, things begin with the tribe going forth and conquering land. The Hebrew Bible is littered with wars and battles, many of them in aggression.

As for the anti-semitism part: this doesn't come as news to you, but I completely agree. Let's not forget though that as much as there is institutionalized anti-semitism there is also institutionalized anti-Catholicism. The KKK was formed initially to hate on and target Catholics, not Jews. One need only turn on the television and watch the news or some program to see the rabid hatred on display against traditional Christianity (not withstanding the brand espoused). I don't see nearly as much against Judaism (at least there).

I think it's remarkable that Judaism, for being so small in numbers, have managed to do so well. Take my home state of Wisconsin. Jews make up a fraction of a percent of the population, but both of our state senators are Jews (Feingold and Kohl).

I would be surprised Yehudah if you didn't agree that in 2010, and long before, both Catholics and Jews have been oppressed in America and continue to be.

But I do not agree that the Jewish story is an incomparable tale of woe. It is the longest and best recorded tale of woe for sure. But we can find mass genocide on the basis of religion long before the 20th century against Christians. I don't say that to shirk the Holocaust, which obviously looms large, but there have been other examples of unthinkable violence targeted against groups of people at the same rate/percentage of the group (though not the same raw numbers).

Yehudah wrote:

neoinarien wrote:
I was looking for a smiley face, and noticed the santa. If an emoticon really, truly disturbs you that much then first I suggest that you remove it from the emoticon options or at the very least post something in the rules about disallowing it rather than simply ambushing someone who uses it as "crass".

It is the manner in which you put it there (your comment). I don't care what the smiley is, just not particularly fond of someone using what I thought was an in your face kind of comment.

Well, I'm happy to have met the first person who can 100% of the time interpret tone for the internet correctly...

In yet another gesture of respect, one that rarely goes reciprocated from you Yehudah (again, using Christianity in lower case, not capitalizing J-sus, etc), I'll not use the santa smiley further.

Again it wasn't so much the smiley, anywhoo. As far as the case against full spelling and capitalization.. we've discussed that before on a different forum and at length. jsus represents the blood of his brothers and sisters. If it weren't for chrstianity and jsus, we'd have many more millions of Jews in the world. And for that reason alone I won't offer the respect of a complete or capitalized spelling.

And so you refuse to respect but this is not "hating"? Your active discrimination is not discriminatory in your view? Also, why capitalize Catholic then? I forgot the part in the Bible when J-sus went on that killing spree... curse that J-sus and his quick reload times.

I won't throw out the 'hater' adjective that you referenced above, but you've demonstrated a persistent and ongoing pattern on this forum in threads where I have been involved of disrespect towards everything except your own brand of conservative/orthodox Judaism (forgive me as I am not 100% sure what exact sect you identify with... nothing is intended by guessing here, and if I knew for sure, I would've have used it in lieu of the words "your brand... Judaism").

For the record, this is my forum, and as such, it doesn't matter what my "pattern" is. My brand of Judaism is Traditional (Orthodox) Judaism. Any other "brand" isn't Judaism. And I don't intentionally disrespect any religion. But, I do disrespect missionarys and haters.

Of course it matters what your pattern is. If someone were to set up an <insert site type here> it would matter no less than if they were commenting on another's board. The difference is that it's your site and you're free from any kind of administrative sanctions for your words. But that is not the same thing as it not mattering.

And as much as I may disagree with most missionaries because their views differ from my own, I can hardly begrudge them from trying. I think it's a pretty smug view to say, "yes, G-d loves us and not you and NOTHING you do about it will make you one of us. We're a special club and G-d doesn't want you." That is not the G-d of love that Christianity talks about.

I never said that. As a matter of fact, I can probably find a few threads on THIS site where I'm telling someone that Torah is for all people, yes, including you and your RCC brethren. As far as that goes, anyone can convert to Judaism if done the right way and for the right reasons. And I've never ever said that G-d doesn't want you. You are completely and intentionally mischaracterizing my words.

Well, you're anti-missionary, right? If you don't think people are worth sharing G-d with, then how can that mean anything other than "you're not worth the time?"

It is out of love (well, hopefully at least) that Christians evangelize much like they did ever since the New Testament. Their goal (ideally) is to bring people closer/to G-d. Obviously any competing faith/sect/cult is going to take a dim view of missionaries from other groups. But I don't have a "huge problem" with them.

So, they aren't trying to actively convert YOU. It is clear that you don't have a problem because they aren't trying to destroy your faith.

Of course I've been actively recruited by various sects/cults. Haven't we all? Some churches have their entire mission of reaching out to Catholics...

Just as obviously, members from competing faiths/sects/cults are going to feel that the missionary not of their group is pulling their members away from G-d rather than towards them. But every group harbors those feelings/beliefs to varying degrees.

So... show me what missionary groups are spending millions of dollars a year to convert RCC. Please.

Archbishop Timothy Dolan puts it rather aptly (paraphrasing): the two largest religious groups in the USA are Catholics and former Catholics. There are numerous, countless even Protestant churches (both denominations like the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, WELS, PCA, everything "Baptist", LDS etc, etc). Catholics are the de facto battleground for missionaries whether here in the US or abroad in France and even Ireland as well as elsewhere. I could go on...

As for the oppression part: you're right, I don't. Everyone's faith has been oppressed at various points, perhaps most points. Christianity began as a religion covered in the blood of the martyrs (all but one of the apostles were killed as martyrs, let alone J-sus being crucified). Even today there remains literally daily stories of Christians being killed around the globe on the basis of their beliefs. There were countless wars of religion, both from within and without Europe and Christendom, etc, and even at the very 'best' of times when people were relatively free to practice Christianity, I think if you were to ask a Protestant they would recoil at the notion of a religiously free Catholic Europe.

wow. How can you compare the oppression of chrstianity or RCC to Judaism and Jews? Very disingenuous.

Why are you limiting oppression to only religious oppression? I'm sure the Catholics in Ireland would disagree, or the Scottish, the Finns under Russian rule, or, etc, etc. There have been untold numbers of groups and tribes that have been utterly eradicated by conquering groups.

Religiously within Christianity, just off the top of my head, the French Huegunots, or the wars of religion in Germany kills untold millions, English reformation... etc, etc.

I think you're taking a very, very, VERY narrow view on oppression to only classify it as people who 1) are oppressed on the basis of religion; and 2) have some sort of written history about it.

I think EVERYONE has a lineage of being oppressed. The difference is that whereas Judaism speaks with a voice through the millennia (I'd say a single voice but I assume it's not a contested fact here that Jewish sects have existed at odds with one another for at least a few thousand years and likely longer), the Scottish Picts do not have that voice to retell the story of thousands of years of resisting aggression, etc, or the Franks dealing with the Visigoths, etc.

Yeah, you could compare them to us.

not

Fact is that regardless of how many splinters Judaism has fallen into, that does not negate the multiple millions of innocent people murdered just for being Jewish.

Yes... I agree that the Jews have been on the short of the stick almost perpetually since the first sack of the Temple. But that doesn't mean that every other group, including those long since wiped off the map, have had a history of peaches and cream.

Even if we look at Jewish history, things begin with the tribe going forth and conquering land. The Hebrew Bible is littered with wars and battles, many of them in aggression.

The "Hebrew" bible is littered with G-D commanding His people to take what he gave them as an inheritance. It's obvious from this statement that you don't agree with G-D's words. The difference between you and I is simple: You look at His words and feel as if you can contest them or disagree with them like He is someone you have the right to disagree with. I on the other hand except with a full heart every word, because He commands me to, and because I love Him, I will do what he commands.

From a Catholic perspective I of course accept them as givens. From a secular perspective, I see a group that goes around attacking and taking land, removing their people, etc.

As for the anti-semitism part: this doesn't come as news to you, but I completely agree. Let's not forget though that as much as there is institutionalized anti-semitism there is also institutionalized anti-Catholicism. The KKK was formed initially to hate on and target Catholics, not Jews. One need only turn on the television and watch the news or some program to see the rabid hatred on display against traditional Christianity (not withstanding the brand espoused). I don't see nearly as much against Judaism (at least there).

Kidding right? Catholics are so persecuted, so much so that the Jews pale in comparison. Poor Poor Catholics. Do I need to remind you that as much persecution as you say you've been under, it is your very church that has IN WRITING persecuted my people?

And I know of rabbi's who have written some less than kind words on Christians...

I think it's remarkable that Judaism, for being so small in numbers, have managed to do so well. Take my home state of Wisconsin. Jews make up a fraction of a percent of the population, but both of our state senators are Jews (Feingold and Kohl).

Interesting enough. Jews represent a majority of Nobel winners as well. Interesting or destined? Never ever forget that Jews are G-D's. Every single nation who has tried to destroy us, has been itself destroyed. That will never change, G-D says so in the Torah.

Well, if you're taking the 'destined' tact, then why all the bad that you're talking about above? I'm not sure the 'we are superior to all others' is such a great approach...

And I'd also add that Christians are G-d's people. Not sure if Jews missed the boat, the jury is still out on that.

I would be surprised Yehudah if you didn't agree that in 2010, and long before, both Catholics and Jews have been oppressed in America and continue to be.

Dude... the level of oppression for Catholicism is so small compared to us. I read on the internet EVERY DAY of a synogogue being desecrated, Jewish graves being vandalized, Chassidim being mugged or murdered, homes being spray painted with swastika's, etc. etc. Show me the same level of worldly hatred.

Yes, I agree: Jews have a rough go of it. But you're minimizing what Catholics get. So many movies, tv shows, news channels, etc, LOVE taking shots are Christians. I can't really say the same for Jews...

But I do not agree that the Jewish story is an incomparable tale of woe. It is the longest and best recorded tale of woe for sure. But we can find mass genocide on the basis of religion long before the 20th century against Christians. I don't say that to shirk the Holocaust, which obviously looms large, but there have been other examples of unthinkable violence targeted against groups of people at the same rate/percentage of the group (though not the same raw numbers).

Okay, show me. Show me in the millions...... show me the documentation of not just the burning of books, but the burning of babies, children, women, men... their animals and homes. Millions upon millions, show me.

Well, once more, you are using numbers. I'm not looking at numbers (and in fact ceded that point upfront). I'm looking at rates. Look at the Christian populaces put to the sword by vikings, picts, huns, visigoth, vandals, moors, japanese, other groups of christians, romans, persians, babylonians... etc.

Tell me the stories of the villiage in old world Russia that was leveled just because the people who lived in it were Jews. All of them murdered, villiage totally raized. Show me the millions.

One village being leveled because the people were Jewish, while horrible, wrong and sad, doesn't go far to prove the case throughout all of history. Though if you insist on going one for one, then look at the slaughter in Antioch where the entire popular, men, women and children, were killed or enslaved.

Factoid - During the korban, the population of China was guesstimated at roughly 12 million, the same at the time of the Jews. Today China has billions... and we are still 12+ million.

Ok... and I am the only living descendent of my great, great grandfather, when he should have 50 or so, if not more. Throwing out anecdotal numbers isn't going to deductively prove any points.

Why is that? And if the RCC was so persecuted, why are their numbers in the hundreds of millions?

Swelling numbers has no correlation with persecution. By that estimation, slaves controlled the Roman empire and the landowners were persecuted.

Yehudah wrote:Having Rabbi's say or write bad things about xtians or RCC isn't on the same level as the RCC putting laws on their books to the detrement of a people - namely, Jews.

Also, I don't remember... how many countries TODAY are lining up to engage Israel to destroy her? How many groups are there in the world whose self proclaimed job in life is to kill Jews and wipe out Israel?

Now, how many say the same about RCC? Is Iran publicly promising to annihalate the RCC? What about Hamas, Lebonan, Syria, UAE, etc..... how many of those very oil-rich countries are funding armies to destroy Israel? Now, how many are doing the same for the RCC?

C'mon Tom. You cannot compare the two. I admit that I see movies and tv shows depicting a bad RCC. How many shows do I see that have the errant Chassidich Jew, or Rabbi... or the Hallmark Movie of the Week showing the wonderful story of the overbearing Orthodox Jewish family and the young widow who breaks away into the REAL world?

Please... you can't compare them.

There is no doubt that the RCC gets a bad rap, xtianity as a whole does too. But getting a bad rap doesn't equal the impending destruction of your people.

neoinarien wrote:
Yeah, I agree on the first part: that eye roll worthy, particularly when the person comes off as bragging.

Bowing to a statute in honor of the person that it represents is not the same as ascribing godlike powers to the statue. Hence the difference between worship/idolatry and using them as art and treating them with respect.

By the same token, I suppose saluting the flag is idolatry?

Arik S. wrote:

neoinarien wrote:
Yeah, I agree on the first part: that eye roll worthy, particularly when the person comes off as bragging.

Bowing to a statute in honor of the person that it represents is not the same as ascribing godlike powers to the statue. Hence the difference between worship/idolatry and using them as art and treating them with respect.

By the same token, I suppose saluting the flag is idolatry?

Perhaps you should read what you often would refer to as the "Old Testament" more. We are not allowed to bow or show respect to any idols whether Jew or non-Jew the prohibition against any form of Idolatry is strictly forbidden. We are not even allowed to posses those things. Also we are not allowed to bow to them or "serve" them in any way, shape or form. Call it what you like. Idolatry is Idolatry.
Saluting a flag is not bowing, kneeling or praying to. Big difference. I have been around many catholics and to say they never bow and pray i front of icons or statues is just not true and if you believe that, your head is in that sand dude. I have seen them do it many times as well as pray to "Saints" they do a lot of that too. We are forbidden to pray to anyone or anything other than G-d.

Yehudah wrote:So you are comparing your praying to saints and their effigies to us praying AT the Western Wall?

stretching it just a tad

We don't daven at the Wall as a means of praying TO it... it's the last vestage of our Holiest Site... huge difference. It is the last place where G-d rested His shechinah.

get out of self defense mode Tom... saying things just to say them isn't working.