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    Wrong interpretations by Christians of OT texts.

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    juggy4711

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    Wrong interpretations by Christians of OT texts.

    Post  juggy4711 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:52 am

    I've been told by Christians that the OT says that the Messiah would come to the second temple which was built and then destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
    Jesus was in that temple and they did not accept Him.

    Curious where they get that idea and what the proper context is? In particular to this:

    "What if Jesus was the Messiah and they missed it? If the Messiah didn't come then why not? Who would that Messiah be? How was the glory of the second temple greater than the temple built by Solomon?

    "Haggai 2:3 Who is left among you that saw this house in her first glory? and how do you see it now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?
    2:4 Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, said the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land, said the LORD, and work: for I am with you, said the LORD of hosts:
    2:5 According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so my spirit remains among you: fear you not.
    2:6 For thus said the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
    2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, said the LORD of hosts.
    2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, said the LORD of hosts.
    2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, said the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, said the LORD of hosts."


    My guess is mistranslation and taking things out of context but for my own curiosity I would welcome a proper explanation.
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    Arik
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    Re: Wrong interpretations by Christians of OT texts.

    Post  Arik on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:53 pm

    Since i am running short of time i am just going to respond to the first two points and pick it up later when i get back:

    "What if Jesus was the Messiah and they missed it?

    According to the book Of Isaiah, the nobody will miss anything. The messiah will be known by all and accepted by all ( I will include scriptural support when I get time)

    If the Messiah didn't come then why not?

    Because of Baseless Hatred. We were informed by Daniel about when our redemption could come The problem is, we were as a people broken into various factions ( the sadducess, Pharisees, Sicaraii, essenes, early xtains, etc..)
    Among Jews, there was a lot of infighting, we ended up bringing the Romans in to keep order, in the end it was our downfall.

    Sorry for the quick Synopsis. will get back to this a bit later.....


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    Arik
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    Re: Wrong interpretations by Christians of OT texts.

    Post  Arik on Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:27 pm

    juggy4711 wrote:I've been told by Christians that the OT says that the Messiah would come to the second temple which was built and then destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
    Jesus was in that temple and they did not accept Him.

    Curious where they get that idea and what the proper context is? In particular to this:

    "What if Jesus was the Messiah and they missed it? If the Messiah didn't come then why not? Who would that Messiah be? How was the glory of the second temple greater than the temple built by Solomon?

    "Haggai 2:3 Who is left among you that saw this house in her first glory? and how do you see it now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?
    2:4 Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, said the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land, said the LORD, and work: for I am with you, said the LORD of hosts:
    2:5 According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so my spirit remains among you: fear you not.
    2:6 For thus said the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
    2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, said the LORD of hosts.
    2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, said the LORD of hosts.
    2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, said the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, said the LORD of hosts."


    My guess is mistranslation and taking things out of context but for my own curiosity I would welcome a proper explanation.

    The second Temple wasn;t in their eyes as grand as the First as scripture points out.. It was actually nowhere near as HOLY as the one King Shlomo built. It also didn't contain the Ark of the Covenant.

    From Jews for Judaism:
    The meaning of the statement that "The glory of the latter Temple will be greater than the first" must be understood from the Torah perspective, which focuses on the ultimate purpose of creation and exile. The goal of creation is that G-dliness will be openly revealed even in the most mundane places and circumstances, as it says in Isaiah 11:9, "The earth will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as waters cover the sea," and Isaiah 40:5, "The glory of G-d will be revealed, and all flesh together will see that the mouth of G-d has spoken." This corresponds with the correct meaning of the rabbinic teaching that the "glory" of the Second Temple surpassed the First Temple in that it was physically larger, more beautiful and stood for a longer period of time. This principle indicates that more of the physical world4 was involved in revealing G-d's glory during the time of the Second Temple. After its destruction this process continues throughout the subsequent exile.




    Not sure if that fully answers your question or not.
    Are your christian friends hinting that Haggai 2:7 is supposed to be the Messiah?
    There is no mention anywhere there of the Messiah.

    More later...


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    Yehudah

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    Re: Wrong interpretations by Christians of OT texts.

    Post  Yehudah on Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:32 pm

    juggy4711 wrote:I've been told by Christians that the OT says that the Messiah would come to the second temple which was built and then destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
    Jesus was in that temple and they did not accept Him.

    Curious where they get that idea and what the proper context is? In particular to this:

    "What if Jesus was the Messiah and they missed it? If the Messiah didn't come then why not? Who would that Messiah be? How was the glory of the second temple greater than the temple built by Solomon?

    "Haggai 2:3 Who is left among you that saw this house in her first glory? and how do you see it now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?
    2:4 Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, said the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land, said the LORD, and work: for I am with you, said the LORD of hosts:
    2:5 According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so my spirit remains among you: fear you not.
    2:6 For thus said the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
    2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, said the LORD of hosts.
    2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, said the LORD of hosts.
    2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, said the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, said the LORD of hosts."


    My guess is mistranslation and taking things out of context but for my own curiosity I would welcome a proper explanation.

    What if yeshka was the messiah, and they missed it.... Okay, here is the deal in a nut shell: The Torah tells us that if any man claims to be a prophet, or tries to change one letter of the Torah, we are to stone him - he's a false prophet. Yeshka wanted folks to believe that he was moshiach, the son of G-d.... that in and of itself is a valid halachic reason to get stoned.

    If the messiah didn't come, why not..... So here's the deal on Moshiach ben Dovid; There is no specific time for Him to come, only that he come in the latter part of the Messianic Era (which we are currently in). Yeshka was the wrong yid, in the wrong time, spewing the wrong stuff to the wrong people.

    Who would the messiah be.... He will be a Man of the Davidic line... not a God, or G-ds' son. A man.

    The 2nd B"hM was not greater than the 1st. Not sure where you get that idea.


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    Arik
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    Re: Wrong interpretations by Christians of OT texts.

    Post  Arik on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:21 am

    juggy4711 wrote:

    "Haggai 2:3 Who is left among you that saw this house in her first glory? and how do you see it now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?
    2:4 Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, said the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land, said the LORD, and work: for I am with you, said the LORD of hosts:
    2:5 According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so my spirit remains among you: fear you not.
    2:6 For thus said the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
    2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, said the LORD of hosts.
    2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, said the LORD of hosts.
    2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, said the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, said the LORD of hosts."


    My guess is mistranslation and taking things out of context but for my own curiosity I would welcome a proper explanation.


    Ok, now I have a little more time. First, I don't understand the quotations from Haggai here as they are being used concerning Messiah.
    In order to understand Haggai, you need to understand Ezra/Nehemiah because that is when Haggai was prophecying and it addresses WHO he was ADDRESSING and WHAT he is Addressing.

    Haggai 2:1
    . In the seventh [month], on the twenty-first of the month, the word of the Lord came through Haggai the prophet, saying:
    2. Say now to Zerubbabel the son of Shaltiel, the governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Jehozadak the High Priest, and to the remnant of the people, saying:.....



    Parallel:
    Ezra chapter 3:


    1. The seventh month arrived, and the Children of Israel [were] in the cities, and the people gathered like one man to Jerusalem.
    Haggai 2:3:

    3. Who among you is left, who saw this house in its former glory? And as you see it now, is it not as nothing in your eyes?

    Ezra 3:12

    12. And many of the priests and the Levites and the heads of the fathers' houses, old men who had seen the first Temple when its foundation was laid, [when they saw] this Temple with their eyes, were weeping with a loud voice, and many with a shout of joy to raise [their] voice.

    Haggai:
    4. And now, be strong, Zerubbabel, says the Lord; and be strong, Joshua the son of Jehozadak the High Priest; and be strong, all the people of the land, says the Lord. And (for I am with you, says the Lord of Hosts) do
    (see also 2:1 above)


    Ezra 5:
    1. Now the prophets, Haggai the prophet and Zechariah, the son of Iddo, prophesied to the Jews who were in Judea and Jerusalem, in the Name of the God of Israel to them.
    2. Then Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel and Jeshua, the son of Jozadak arose and commenced to build the House of God, which is in Jerusalem, and with them were the prophets of God assisting them.


    Haggai:
    6. For so said the Lord of Hosts: [There will rise] another one, and I will shake up the heaven and the earth and the sea and the dry land [for] a little while.



    I.e. One more nation shall subdue you, the Greeks; but their domination will only last a short while. During the Syrian-Greek rule, I will cause a major upheaval in the land- A reference to the Hasmonean revolt against the Syrian-Greeks and the Miracle of Chanukah.

    Haggai 2:

    8. The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine, says the Lord of Hosts.


    Ezra 6:

    3. In the first year of King Cyrus, King Cyrus gave an order regarding the House of God in Jerusalem, that the House should be built, a place where they offer up sacrifices, and its walls should be founded, its height sixty cubits and its width sixty cubits.
    4. Three rows of marble and a row of new wood, and the expenditures shall be given from the royal house.
    5. And also the vessels of the House of God, of gold and silver, which Nebuchadnezzar took out of the Temple that is in Jerusalem and brought to Babylon, let them be given over and brought to the Temple that is in Jerusalem to its place, and they shall be deposited in the House of God.


    Haggai 2:9. The glory of this last House shall be greater than the first one, said the Lord of Hosts. And in this place I will grant peace, says the Lord of Hosts.

    In the physical sense, it was especially after Herod came along later and kind of "beefed it up" but although it became grand in the physical sense. it never had the Sanctity and holiness of the one before it, there was no Ark of the covenant there was no beastplate as was in the first, etc...

    Overall what was going on here was after the return when it was decided to rebuild the temple with the go-ahead from Cyrus, The construction was halted at one point (see Ezra chapter 4) but then when they could again build, the people were lethargic in rebuilding..G-d sent a message through Haggai in short, to get off their butts and complete the Temple which they did...
    That is all this has to do with. It is all about context and understanding what one is reading. There is no use trying to understand Jewish scriptures from xtians who often have no idea what they are talking about..
    Nothing about Haggai could possibly have anything to do with jsus.


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    juggy4711

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    Re: Wrong interpretations by Christians of OT texts.

    Post  juggy4711 on Sun May 20, 2012 5:19 pm

    Thanks for the replies. Haven't quite soaked it all in yet but it seems that they're are taking Haggai out of context in their usual attempt to show how Jewish scripture proves Jesus was the son of God.

    The belligerent ego and audacity never ceases to amaze me in that regard. It'd be like me trying to tell Shakespeare, Dickens or Tolstoy that what they wrote didn't mean what the think it did. Insanity. scratch

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