Geshmache Yid!

Welcome to our Forum. Please log in. If you have issues, please contact the adminstrator for assistance.
Geshmache Yid!

All things Jewish


    What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Share

    juggy4711

    Posts : 46
    Join date : 2011-08-09

    What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  juggy4711 on Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:37 pm

    Is it all bologna or is it considered accurate except that Jesus was a crackpot?
    avatar
    Yehudah

    Posts : 466
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 54
    Location : East Coast, USA

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Yehudah on Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:56 pm

    juggy4711 wrote:Is it all bologna or is it considered accurate except that Jesus was a crackpot?
    Bologna.

    To us, the NT is a nice work of fiction made up hundreds of years after the death of jsus by people who never knew him or met him.


    _________________
    ...trying to actualize my potential!

    juggy4711

    Posts : 46
    Join date : 2011-08-09

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  juggy4711 on Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:34 am

    I read somewhere, can't recall where though, that Jewish scholars think that the story of Jesus in the NT is a combination or 3 or more folks that claimed to be the Messiah with in around a hundred years or so of the time period Jesus was supposed to have lived?

    So if its all BS, are there Jewish writing covering that time period?
    avatar
    Yehudah

    Posts : 466
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 54
    Location : East Coast, USA

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Yehudah on Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:26 am

    We haves to refer to Josephus and other historians of the day. The Tanakh was already canonized by the Anshei Kneses Hagadolah (the men of the great assembly), so nothing else could be added. But there are tons of first and second hand accounts of that period.


    _________________
    ...trying to actualize my potential!
    avatar
    Arik
    Admin

    Posts : 721
    Join date : 2009-08-07
    Location : Pa

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Arik on Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:59 pm

    Bologna.

    If you have followed any of my posts and GTRI you know that I have pointed out so many contradictions as well as things written in the NT that were clearly written by people who could not understand the language, Jewsh customs, Jewish Laws, etc. Also if you check out the anti-missionary forum here, many problems of the NT are pointed out.


    _________________
    שנית מסדה לא תיפול

    juggy4711

    Posts : 46
    Join date : 2011-08-09

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  juggy4711 on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:06 pm

    Arik wrote:Bologna.

    If you have followed any of my posts and GTRI you know that I have pointed out so many contradictions as well as things written in the NT that were clearly written by people who could not understand the language, Jewsh customs, Jewish Laws, etc. Also if you check out the anti-missionary forum here, many problems of the NT are pointed out.

    I have. I guess I was asking for the top five. I can see where it was all misunderstood, or as I mentioned before a combo of several individuals tales, but it seems there must be some historical truth to it even if Jesus was just a Jim Jones as I suspect.
    avatar
    Arik
    Admin

    Posts : 721
    Join date : 2009-08-07
    Location : Pa

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Arik on Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:16 am

    juggy4711 wrote:
    Arik wrote:Bologna.

    If you have followed any of my posts and GTRI you know that I have pointed out so many contradictions as well as things written in the NT that were clearly written by people who could not understand the language, Jewsh customs, Jewish Laws, etc. Also if you check out the anti-missionary forum here, many problems of the NT are pointed out.

    I have. I guess I was asking for the top five. I can see where it was all misunderstood, or as I mentioned before a combo of several individuals tales, but it seems there must be some historical truth to it even if Jesus was just a Jim Jones as I suspect.


    According the the Gospel of Matthew, yeshu had to be born before the death of Herod, historically recorded as 4 BCE. According to the Gospel of Luke, yeshu was born during the census by the Roman authorities, historically recorded as 6 CE. So there is a discrepancy of at least a decade in yeshu's date of birth.

    That's a problem.

    There is no historical record of the "trial"of yeshu (jsus) in Roman records.

    There is no mention of "Paul" in any rabbinic literature.

    No non-Christian alive when Jesus lived ever mentions seeing Jsus or hearing Jsus—or even hearing about jsus!
    They don't mention the star that heralded His birth.
    They don't mention Herod's slaughter of boy babies.
    They don't mention crowds gathered to hear Him preach.
    They don't mention His trial.
    They don't mention His crucifixion.
    They don't mention His resurrection.
    They never mention anything He said, or anywhere He went, or anything He thought, or anything He said, or anything He did.

    No non-Christian alive when Jsus lived ever mentions Him at all. Not once.


    As to the "first" part of the New Testament, the Gospels, partly because Mark mentions the Jewish-Roman war of the 70s AD, and because Matthew and Luke quote Mark, the consensus of mainstream modern scholarship is that the gospels were written decades after Jesus' death—by people who never met Him! Some scholars guess the gospels were written late in the first century, maybe forty or fifty years after Jesus died. But that's just a guess—a low ball guess. The gospels are not mentioned by in any other Christian writings—Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, for example—until about 150 AD. Many scholars guess they existed before 150 AD—but a scholarly guess is still just a guess.

    There is no contemporary record that Jsus existed. None. That's not a guess, that's a fact.

    In 312 (CE) the Roman Emperor Constantine responding to a dream (how Pagan!), converted from paganism to Christianity. The world changed forever. All of a sudden it was good to be Christian and bad to be Pagan. Within a century of Constantine's conversion the Empire went from roughly ten percent Christian (most of these believing in now extinct "heretical" Christianities) to mostly Roman Christian

    How did the conversion happen? Partly by giving Christians preference for government contracts and advancement.

    Also by coercion.


    Constantine made divination in public matters was punishable by burning to death.






    Pagan sacrifices were banned [341 AD].


    Nocturnal pagan worship was forbidden [353 AD].


    By mid-century, pagan temples were ordered closed.


    In 356 AD worship of non-Christian images became a capital crime.



    In 385 Christians tore the great and famous temple at Edessa to the ground, and the praetorian prefect Cynegius' trip to Egypt was marked by Christians rampaging around the pagan cities of Syria as vandalizing, looting mobs. Taking Pagan gold, but not stealing it, for


    "...there is no such thing as 'robbery' for those who truly possess Christ." [Libanius, Or. 30.9f]
    Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.




    In 399 AD Gaudentius and Jovinus, counts of the emperor, "overthrew the temples and broke the images of the false gods" in Carthage. Ever since, says St. Augustine...


    "Who does not see how much the worship of the name of Christ has increased." [St. Augustine, Civ dei 18:45]


    _________________
    שנית מסדה לא תיפול

    juggy4711

    Posts : 46
    Join date : 2011-08-09

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  juggy4711 on Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:13 pm

    Ok, I follow so where did the stories of Jesus come from? Seems to me there must have been some basis. Wrong or not, multiple folks or not there must be some reason so many believe in Christianity.
    avatar
    Arik
    Admin

    Posts : 721
    Join date : 2009-08-07
    Location : Pa

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Arik on Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:18 pm

    Where did the idea of Santa Claus come from? Certainly with such a huge following there simply must have been a guy with flying reindeer.


    _________________
    שנית מסדה לא תיפול
    avatar
    Yehudah

    Posts : 466
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 54
    Location : East Coast, USA

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Yehudah on Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:39 pm

    lol!
    Arik wrote:Where did the idea of Santa Claus come from? Certainly with such a huge following there simply must have been a guy with flying reindeer.


    _________________
    ...trying to actualize my potential!

    juggy4711

    Posts : 46
    Join date : 2011-08-09

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  juggy4711 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:36 am

    Arik wrote:Where did the idea of Santa Claus come from? Certainly with such a huge following there simply must have been a guy with flying reindeer.

    From St. Nick of course. santa

    Seriously though...I follow but there must have been an individual/s that inspired the stories no matter how incorrect or in violation of Jewish belief. Were there folks that claimed to be the Messiah within 1 or 2 hundred years of the time Jesus supposedly lived?

    The lack of records, especially Roman, lead me to believe that Jesus was not a real person, at least not a single person. However it is just as unlikely that there was no living inspiration/s for his story. To believe so would be like believing in Santa had there never been a St. Nick.

    As I understand it now, the NT had some seriously heavy political stuff going on. If there had been some dude claiming to be the Messiah around 30 CE how would it have gone down with the local government at that time?
    avatar
    Arik
    Admin

    Posts : 721
    Join date : 2009-08-07
    Location : Pa

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Arik on Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:38 am

    You have to understand that we had "messiahs" everywhere during that time. It seemed every week there was some new "messiah" who was going to free us from the oppression of the Romans.
    The best thing to do is visit my thread in the anti missionary forum entitles "Why Jews know jsus was a false messiah"

    The first thing to understand is what the Messiah was and was NOT supposed to do. It wasn't so much the thinking of jsus as possibly being The Messiah that is the problem. He wasn't the first, he wasn't the last. It was the idea that came later that somehow he was "G-d" that he was equal to G-d and that in order to "get to heaven" one had to believe in him.
    Xtianity was a cockney religion at best until Constantine's "conversion" to xtianity.
    Take a look at the political climate in Rome at the time and then look at the ridiculous story of Pilate who seemed concerned with "angering the Jews" and was just some overall nice guy who felt bad about crucifying this one Jew. Really? History shows Pilate certainly needed no excuse to kill or anger Jews, he did it all the time.
    Anyone claiming to be the messiah, more than likely would have made the Roman's nervous since Jewish tradition was in fact that he would be a great military leader and would free us from Roman oppression.


    _________________
    שנית מסדה לא תיפול
    avatar
    Yehudah

    Posts : 466
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 54
    Location : East Coast, USA

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Yehudah on Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:49 pm

    juggy4711 wrote: If there had been some dude claiming to be the Messiah around 30 CE how would it have gone down with the local government at that time?

    The same scrutiny would have stood. Anyone claiming to be messiah, isn't. There are strict guidelines for being the messiah.

    There were men who claimed it all throughout history, and all of them died. There were also men who were deemed messiah material - they had the potential to be messiah, but they died too. Can't be messiah if you die. That isn't to say that he has to be immortal, it just means he can't die before performing all of the prerequisites of being Moshiach Tzidkaynu.


    _________________
    ...trying to actualize my potential!

    juggy4711

    Posts : 46
    Join date : 2011-08-09

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  juggy4711 on Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:40 pm

    Arik wrote:You have to understand that we had "messiahs" everywhere during that time. It seemed every week there was some new "messiah" who was going to free us from the oppression of the Romans.
    The best thing to do is visit my thread in the anti missionary forum entitles "Why Jews know jsus was a false messiah"

    The first thing to understand is what the Messiah was and was NOT supposed to do. It wasn't so much the thinking of jsus as possibly being The Messiah that is the problem. He wasn't the first, he wasn't the last. It was the idea that came later that somehow he was "G-d" that he was equal to G-d and that in order to "get to heaven" one had to believe in him.
    Xtianity was a cockney religion at best until Constantine's "conversion" to xtianity.
    Take a look at the political climate in Rome at the time and then look at the ridiculous story of Pilate who seemed concerned with "angering the Jews" and was just some overall nice guy who felt bad about crucifying this one Jew. Really? History shows Pilate certainly needed no excuse to kill or anger Jews, he did it all the time.
    Anyone claiming to be the messiah, more than likely would have made the Roman's nervous since Jewish tradition was in fact that he would be a great military leader and would free us from Roman oppression.

    That makes sense. So possibly the NT Jesus is amalagam of various stories about all kinds of folks claiming to be the Messaih with a son of God/salvation twist thrown in at some point. Seems more likely than it was all made up without insperation of some kind.
    avatar
    Yehudah

    Posts : 466
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 54
    Location : East Coast, USA

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Yehudah on Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:46 pm

    There are a lot of explanations, secular and religious regarding the story of jesus.

    It would be a long post for me to explain fully what I believe. Suffice it to say that I don't believe 1% of the christian or secular versions.


    _________________
    ...trying to actualize my potential!

    juggy4711

    Posts : 46
    Join date : 2011-08-09

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  juggy4711 on Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:59 pm

    Yehudah wrote:There are a lot of explanations, secular and religious regarding the story of jesus.

    It would be a long post for me to explain fully what I believe. Suffice it to say that I don't believe 1% of the christian or secular versions.

    Neither do I, but no inspiration or basis at all, is implausible.
    avatar
    Arik
    Admin

    Posts : 721
    Join date : 2009-08-07
    Location : Pa

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Arik on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:44 pm

    I am sure there is some basis. I would imagine it was inspired by things picked up from other religions. In fact it is most likely since xtianity has so much in common with Egyptian and Roman beliefs.
    Just like Islam, there is some inspiration. No doubt Muhammed was inspired by Jewish teachings.


    _________________
    שנית מסדה לא תיפול

    Sponsored content

    Re: What is the Judaic view of the NT?

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:37 pm