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    Christians and exclusivity...

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    Arik
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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:01 pm

    neoinarien wrote:

    Naturally, because J-sus had not yet been revealed. Just because angels were not revealed until later does not mean they didn't exist from the get go. Genesis of course says,

    "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image..." at verse 26 while it reads at verse 1-2, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

    That's only the first chapter of Genesis and we have multiple verses supporting the Christian trinitarian dogma.

    As for the 'born' argument, Chr-st the man was born. Chr-st the living G-d was not. Chr-st is both fully man and fully G-d.


    The first part of your statement is making my point. G-d was already revealed fully at Sinai. G-d made it clear " before me, there was no G-d formed, nor will there be one after me..."
    some new "god" or "part of a god" is not going to be revealed 1800 years later, there is only one and never will be in whole, or in part, another one.


    "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image..." at verse 26 while it reads at verse 1-2, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

    That's only the first chapter of Genesis and we have multiple verses supporting the Christian trinitarian dogm
    a.


    G-d was speaking to his ministering angles it happens many times ( see Job 1:1) Ezekiel chapter 1, Ps.civ.3f., Isiah 6:2.

    Angels were not created on the first day, lest people say that somehow Michael stretched out his hand and parted the waters from the land, etc.. Nothing in Genesis points to a "trinity" unless one wants it to.


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    neoinarien

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:26 pm

    Arik wrote:

    Neo,
    I am quoting her from the KJV Matt. 19:17
    "and he said to him, Why callest me thou good? There is none good but one, that is, G_d, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.."

    What? are you telling me now that the Catholic Church is now rejecting the King James??
    Further, what commandments do you think jsus was talking about?


    The verse is simply saying that G-d does not lie.

    No, the verse is saying that G-d is not a man and therefore not capable of behaving like a man not swayed by the things that say man such as lying, etc...

    Haha, first off: the Catholic Church has never accepted the KJV as a Catholic Bible. It is a pretty good translation for what it is, but it's not some kind of "perfect translation" was many Protestant's agree.

    I see the error and I believe the mistake was 100% mine: my apologies! I assumed you had included the whole verse, and was confused at the truncation. Again: mea culpa.

    The following verses makes it pretty clear what J-sus was talking about in that chapter. If you don't keep those, you likely don't have a shot. But to say that faith in G-d is not also a pre-requisite to salvation would be to ignore the totality of the NT.


    G-d as man (or not).
    There are numerous ways to approach this verse. First, G-d the Father is not man. Nor the Sp-rit. J-sus, while existing as G-d had not been Incarnated yet. So in that sense alone, everything is valid.

    But.

    I still don't agree with your exegesis here as a misapplication of the emphasis and construction.


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:29 pm

    I have to dash (daughter is sick) but I'll get back to you if not today then soon (the whole family/house is moving tomorrow morning... that's right, I can see you all are green with envy at the thought of moving affraid ).

    So until next time (likely in a few days once sanity has been restored), wish us luck and G-d bless!

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:45 pm

    Well, you are lucky. I am trying to sell a house and buy one at the same time. at Least you are moving...


    OK, so you dont accept the KJV even though i believe it was Ctaholics who translated it

    Question

    So How do you consider this:


    Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (KJV)



    There are things that G-d keeps from Himself? Is such a thing even possible? Its obvious that these verses contradict Jsus being equal and of the same substance as G-d Almighty. Chrstian s say hes G-d, and then they say hes the Son of G-d. Make up your mind. Which one is he? Is he G-d or is he the Messiah? He cant be both, and closer examination will show he is neither.

    Quote: Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their G-d. [24] And David My servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (KJV)



    Chrstians and Jews agree that chapter 37 of Ezekiel is messianic. The object of verse 24 of Ezekiel 37 is the Messiah, and it is clear that the Messiah is G-ds servant, and not G-d Himself.


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    neoinarien

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:21 pm

    Arik wrote:Well, you are lucky. I am trying to sell a house and buy one at the same time. at Least you are moving...


    OK, so you dont accept the KJV even though i believe it was Ctaholics who translated it

    Question

    The KJV is a very well done edition: a tad out of date when it comes to translating from the best manuscripts, but nothing to turn a nose up at. It is NOT a Catholic Bible though, nor was it translated by Catholics.

    An easy way to see if a Bible is Catholic or not is to simply glance at whether it contains the "Apocrypha." Conservative and Traditionalist Catholics (these are two VERY different and distinct groups) use the Douay-Rheims, the Revised Standard Version (RSV), or Oxford (with Apocrypha). The New American Bible (NAB) is the mainstream than all of the above though and is the most commonly found Catholic Bible.


    Arik wrote:So How do you consider this:


    Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (KJV)



    There are things that G-d keeps from Himself? Is such a thing even possible? Its obvious that these verses contradict Jsus being equal and of the same substance as G-d Almighty. Chrstian s say hes G-d, and then they say hes the Son of G-d. Make up your mind. Which one is he? Is he G-d or is he the Messiah? He cant be both, and closer examination will show he is neither.

    A common stumbling block. So common, in fact, that the Douay-Rheims has a cite to it with explanation.

    "Nor the Son"... Not that the Son of God is absolutely ignorant of the day of judgment, but that he knoweth it not, as our teacher; that is, he knoweth it not so as to teach it to us, as not being expedient.

    http://www.drbo.org/chapter/48013.htm

    There are more in depth explanations, and I'd be happy to go into it more if you'd like. But that is a short, easily citable one.


    Arik wrote: Quote: Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their G-d. [24] And David My servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (KJV)



    Chrstians and Jews agree that chapter 37 of Ezekiel is messianic. The object of verse 24 of Ezekiel 37 is the Messiah, and it is clear that the Messiah is G-ds servant, and not G-d Himself.

    Naturally, I disagree. clown

    Now the book of Ezekiel was written about 600 BC which would be about 400 years after the death of King David. Does this verse mean that King David will be resurrected and reign over Israel or does it mean something else? The name David means "beloved or dear." (Rom 1:3 KJV) Concerning his Son J-sus Chr-st our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; David was made of the seed of Chr-st according to the Spirit. Chr-st was in the lineage of David. (John 7:42 KJV) Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

    (Acts 15:16 KJV) After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: The tabernacle of David is a synonym for the building up of the Church. (Acts 2:34 KJV) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The L-rd said unto my L-rd, Sit thou on my right hand, When speaking of the resurrection of Chr-st this passage makes a clear declaration the David did not ascend into heaven. The L-rd J-sus Chr-st was the one who ascended into heaven. So when G-d uses David in Ezekiel 37:24 he is telling us that Chr-st will be the one who will be King over them.

    G-d goes on to say that this king will also be the one shepherd which will be over them. David was a shepherd of sheep but the L-rd J-sus Chr-st is the Shepherd of His Church. (John 10:11 KJV) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. David did not give his life for the sheep but the L-rd J-sus Chr-st did. In the balance of this verse G-d reiterates that those who follow the shepherd will be obedient to His statutes and laws. This type of obedience is only found in the redeemed.

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:49 am

    [quote="neoinarien"]
    Arik wrote:those who follow the shepherd will be obedient to His statutes and laws. This type of obedience is only found in the redeemed.

    His laws, or G-d's?


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    Yehudah

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Yehudah on Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:56 pm

    I've kindof stayed away from this thread, not sure of where I can step in.

    To be sure, Tom is a frum catholic. So we aren't going to get too far because his understanding is that of a catholic. Not that it's bad, but while he's a tremendously smart man, I don't think he can really comprehend Torah.

    It isn't a knock Tom. It's just the truth.

    Knowledge of G-d comes from the study of Torah, and nothing else. It's a understandably hard concept to grasp for those who don't want to grasp it.

    Arik, I think you know full well what he meant in your post, we all do. Again, it's not a knock. We aren't going to convince each
    other to switch hit.

    I like the thread, it's interesting. ...just seemingly pointless.

    We all agree that there is only one G-d. When we are all in Shamayim learning Torah with Moshe Rabbeinu, we can argue the finer points of Torah. In this world, arguing the points of Torah versus the NT just isn't worth much.


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    neoinarien

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:12 pm

    Yehudah wrote:I've kindof stayed away from this thread, not sure of where I can step in.

    To be sure, Tom is a frum catholic. So we aren't going to get too far because his understanding is that of a catholic. Not that it's bad, but while he's a tremendously smart man, I don't think he can really comprehend Torah.

    It isn't a knock Tom. It's just the truth.

    Knowledge of G-d comes from the study of Torah, and nothing else. It's a understandably hard concept to grasp for those who don't want to grasp it.

    Arik, I think you know full well what he meant in your post, we all do. Again, it's not a knock. We aren't going to convince each
    other to switch hit.

    I like the thread, it's interesting. ...just seemingly pointless.

    We all agree that there is only one G-d. When we are all in Shamayim learning Torah with Moshe Rabbeinu, we can argue the finer points of Torah. In this world, arguing the points of Torah versus the NT just isn't worth much.

    I generally agree.

    I am NOT one of those "ecumenical" types (not sure if that term is unique to Christian circles or not).

    Obviously, I disagree on the "[k]nowledge of G-d comes from the study of Torah" bit.

    I'm not really sure we're trying to convince each other of anything. I'm just responding to points that are brought up without making any of my own.

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Yehudah on Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:36 am

    Knowledge of G-d through Torah isn't a "bit". And here is where the true separation lies, it isn't with jsus, it's with Torah.

    Torah is fundamental to life, and there is no other way to have educational knowledge of G-d than through it.

    G-d covers every aspect of life in His Torah. Not one aspect is left out. You aren't going to find that in your NT, certainly not coming straight from G-d (b"h b"sh).

    I get that you don't get it, the contingent of .002% pretty much are the only ones.

    Please, referring to this as a "bit" though, a little condescending.

    After the world gets wiped out during the coming of Moshiach, the .002% will remain. We'll study Torah.


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:31 pm

    I agree Hudy, this thread has gotten way off topic so it seems to be now somewhat pointless. We haven't gotten any more feedback from the OP as to his thoughts on this issue since the OP.


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Yehudah on Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:11 pm

    Don't get me wrong, I like Tom, he's a stand up guy. I just don't see the point in this particular thread.

    I think we need a fresh debate.. a real one. I'm just not sure that's even worth the effort.


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    Arik
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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:18 am

    No need for everything to be a debate...How about just a discussion? lol


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    neoinarien

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:36 pm

    [quote="Arik"]
    neoinarien wrote:
    Arik wrote:those who follow the shepherd will be obedient to His statutes and laws. This type of obedience is only found in the redeemed.

    His laws, or G-d's?

    The only explicit commandment given by Ch-st is this,

    "A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2013:34-13:34&version=DRA

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Yehudah on Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:04 pm

    And that's a problem - it doesnt matter who you are - the Torah is explicit (not one letter can be added to or taken from it). G-d didn't say it would be okay if it were jsus did He?


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:04 pm

    The commandment to "love one another" isn't new with jsus. It was already given in Leviticus


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:06 pm

    Seems like the two of you worked it out for me above Wink

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