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    Christians and exclusivity...

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    Earnest_lee_Cking

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    Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Earnest_lee_Cking on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:48 am

    Hey all...

    I was just wondering what conclusions some of you might have come to about the claims of "exclusivity" (be one of us or go to hell) by most christians. After studying the scripture diligently for years, I have come to the conclusion that christians have to overlook much of what Jesus said, as well as many passages of OT scripture to come to the conclusion about exclusivity.

    Paul writes in the letter to the romans that when gentiles who were not given the law do by nature the things required by the law, they become a law unto themselves. Jesus said we could know people by their fruit, and it just staggers me sometimes to see how ugly people can be and claim they know God, and their ticket to eternal bliss in the afterlife is punched. Anyone else considered this at length??


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:38 am

    Eric, The second paragraph of your post comes very close to what i would call proselytizing so please be careful and remember to follow forum rules.
    Jsus claimed "He believeth, shall be saved, but he who believest not ( in him) is condemned already.." (I am going by memory here)

    The concept that one must accept Jsus in order to be "saved" comes from jsus himself, so the exclusivity you refer to comes directly from him. The idea of the "NT" is that in order to "go to heaven" one must accept a certain man as a "savior" G-d made it clear through the prophet Hosea that we have no other savior other than HIM and HIM alone, and that we should not have known of any other savior or god since Sinai.
    Therefore we reject the concept of any other "savior" in keeping with the commandment of G-d. When we "rejected" this new "savior" we brought down the wrath of the xtians on ourselves since they tend to take rejection of their messiah as somehow personal.
    I tell xtians i am not so much rejecting jsus so much as I accept G-d and G-d alone.

    Jsus was always on how there was "no way to the Father" except through him. That sounds pretty exclusive to me.


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    Earnest_lee_Cking

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Earnest_lee_Cking on Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:24 am

    Arik wrote:Eric, The second paragraph of your post comes very close to what i would call proselytizing so please be careful and remember to follow forum rules.
    Jsus claimed "He believeth, shall be saved, but he who believest not ( in him) is condemned already.." (I am going by memory here)

    The concept that one must accept Jsus in order to be "saved" comes from jsus himself, so the exclusivity you refer to comes directly from him. The idea of the "NT" is that in order to "go to heaven" one must accept a certain man as a "savior" G-d made it clear through the prophet Hosea that we have no other savior other than HIM and HIM alone, and that we should not have known of any other savior or god since Sinai.
    Therefore we reject the concept of any other "savior" in keeping with the commandment of G-d. When we "rejected" this new "savior" we brought down the wrath of the xtians on ourselves since they tend to take rejection of their messiah as somehow personal.
    I tell xtians i am not so much rejecting jsus so much as I accept G-d and G-d alone.

    Jsus was always on how there was "no way to the Father" except through him. That sounds pretty exclusive to me.

    Hey Arik...

    I am not proselytizing, and I apologize if it came off like that. I am asking questions to get input, and need some frame of reference. Simply asking questions.


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:30 am

    Yeah no problem. I didn't think you meant anything by it, just letting you know because some people do in fact take things to that level Smile


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    Earnest_lee_Cking

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Earnest_lee_Cking on Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:52 am

    Arik wrote:Yeah no problem. I didn't think you meant anything by it, just letting you know because some people do in fact take things to that level Smile

    Yeah I know...


    I was taught for years it was the christians' responsibility to get people "saved." I kinda think God can take care of that.

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:41 am

    In order to "bring people to G-d, people need to live by example. Telling people words is one thing, living a noble life is another.
    Sounds like you are a good Candidate for B'nai Noach.

    http://www.milechai.com/judaism/bnai-noach.html


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    Earnest_lee_Cking

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Earnest_lee_Cking on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:11 am

    Arik wrote:In order to "bring people to G-d, people need to live by example. Telling people words is one thing, living a noble life is another.
    Sounds like you are a good Candidate for B'nai Noach.

    http://www.milechai.com/judaism/bnai-noach.html

    Hey Arik...

    I am familiar with the B'nai Noach. Thanks for the link.

    As far as where Jesus figures into this. I have come to believe that scripture has been so perverted that the whole way it has been sold is just wrong.

    Please, anyone who reads this, understand I am not trying to convert anyone. I am simply laying out what I have come to understand. I give everyone the freedom and the right to believe as they choose. I want to have respect for the beliefs of others, but also must be true to my own experience and understanding.

    It is my belief now that when Jesus said:"no one comes to the father except through me" is true, but not in the sense that it has been pushed by christians.

    John describes Jesus as the "logos." He was borrowing a term from the greek philosophers which is where we get the word logo. If you see the golden arches, you know they sell happy meals and milk shakes. "Logos" as it was used by John was simply saying that the way Jesus was with people is how God is with people. Patient, long suffering, merciful, friend to those who are disenfranchised by society, etc. If the "logos" was love and mercy, then this is how we are expected to come to father, that is through exhibiting love and mercy to our fellow man.

    Christians have used that passage of scripture to claim exclusivity, while showing no love for their fellow man by being willing to relegate to eternal torment those who don't see it the way they do.

    Also, if we look at the indictments that came down through the prophets, it seems that the number one thing that people were called on is their callousness towards, and disregard for the plight of their fellow man. People would go to the temple and claim to worship God while their neighbor was starving, or had had their land taken for a debt they couldn't pay and had no place to live. One of the things written in the NT by John is that if we say we love God, but have no compassion for our fellow man, we lie, and the truth is not in us. Does that make sense to anyone else?


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:22 am

    Certainly it makes sense. You and I of course can debate whether or not jsus was a good person or not, but i certainly don't think people of other religions are by default "bad" just because they may believe differently than I do.
    As to the Logo, We already have one in our Father Abraham. Someone who showed extreme kindness and graciousness to people and followed G-d even to the point of being willing to sacrifice his own son for G-d.
    I think you are close to finding your way. We show our love to G-d best when we learn to love one another since we were created in the image of G-d.


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    Earnest_lee_Cking

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Earnest_lee_Cking on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:26 am

    Arik wrote:Certainly it makes sense. You and I of course can debate whether or not jsus was a good person or not, but i certainly don't think people of other religions are by default "bad" just because they may believe differently than I do.
    As to the Logo, We already have one in our Father Abraham. Someone who showed extreme kindness and graciousness to people and followed G-d even to the point of being willing to sacrifice his own son for G-d.
    I think you are close to finding your way. We show our love to G-d best when we learn to love one another since we were created in the image of G-d.

    Absolutely Arik...

    In this we show our love for God that we love one another.

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:43 pm

    Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with Baptists or another Protestant group.

    I'll just point out that the Church, that is the Catholic Church, does not believe in exclusivity.

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:55 pm

    neoinarien wrote:Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with Baptists or another Protestant group.

    I'll just point out that the Church, that is the Catholic Church, does not believe in exclusivity.

    Well with all due respect. That has not been my impression of Catholicism as a whole. While I have Catholic friends, etc. I have found that many do tend to have the attitude described by the +OP. Although it could just be the area I am in perhaps?


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:20 pm

    Arik wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with Baptists or another Protestant group.

    I'll just point out that the Church, that is the Catholic Church, does not believe in exclusivity.

    Well with all due respect. That has not been my impression of Catholicism as a whole. While I have Catholic friends, etc. I have found that many do tend to have the attitude described by the +OP. Although it could just be the area I am in perhaps?

    Well, since you asked...

    I know the rules on citing to non-Jewish sources. So unless someone wants to email or PM me, I won't cite or quote it. Suffice to say, official Church teaching is that non-Catholics can go to heaven. So one "need" not be Catholic.

    But.

    These would be truly exceptional or uniquely situated individuals.

    Also.

    Those 'saved' who are non-Catholic would still be saved by the Church since J-sus is the mechanism that saves and the Church is the vessel.

    I'm painting in very broad strokes to deliberately avoid accusations of evangelizing, since I understand that is a touchy subject. Wink jocolor

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Yehudah on Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:46 pm

    Yup, touchy indeed.

    The Torah doesn't reserve itself for Jews. You only have to go to perek daled when Kayin killed Hevel to see that. To start, they weren't Jewish. Then G-d tells Kayin that all he has to do is want to do good to overcome evil - seems easy enough.

    Any person in the entire world who leads a life of charity, kindness, and believes in ONE G-D, has a place in shamayim.

    Don't have to be Jewish... you could even be a sh'ite muslim.

    My issue with christianity for the most part is the mantra that is beaten to death - that you have to be saved by jc in order to get to shamayim... and it just isn't true. And as far as RCC is concerned, all respect Tom (who is a very stand-up and respected guy) - you don't have to be an exceptional human being or a special case.

    Torah - The Bible - teaches us this.


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:44 am

    neoinarien wrote:Suffice to say, official Church teaching is that non-Catholics can go to heaven. So one "need" not be Catholic.

    But.

    These would be truly exceptional or uniquely situated individuals.


    So if i understand you correctly, I someone is not a Catholic, they could still be "saved" but this person would have to somehow be an "exceptional" person. How does that NOT sound exclusionary?


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:03 pm

    Arik wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:Suffice to say, official Church teaching is that non-Catholics can go to heaven. So one "need" not be Catholic.

    But.

    These would be truly exceptional or uniquely situated individuals.


    So if i understand you correctly, I someone is not a Catholic, they could still be "saved" but this person would have to somehow be an "exceptional" person. How does that NOT sound exclusionary?

    Because it is not exclusionary. Something that is exclusionary means that it excludes.

    Here is the direct quote from the Catechism (since we are studying this as an academic issue, I would assume this is not an evangelizing effort- I am sure there are many Rabbis who study and discuss different thoughts on ideas).

    "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Chr-st or his Church, but who nevertheless seek G-d with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

    But since everyone who is 'saved' is saved by the Church, ergo, all are saved by the Church.

    It's certainly not as liberal a view as has been represented of Judaism in this thread (and thank you for the feedback: always fun to learn!), but nor does it automatically preclude all others.


    Last edited by neoinarien on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : oops! omitting certain vowels)

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:16 pm

    Yehudah wrote:Yup, touchy indeed.

    The Torah doesn't reserve itself for Jews. You only have to go to perek daled when Kayin killed Hevel to see that. To start, they weren't Jewish. Then G-d tells Kayin that all he has to do is want to do good to overcome evil - seems easy enough.

    Any person in the entire world who leads a life of charity, kindness, and believes in ONE G-D, has a place in shamayim.

    Don't have to be Jewish... you could even be a sh'ite muslim.

    My issue with christianity for the most part is the mantra that is beaten to death - that you have to be saved by jc in order to get to shamayim... and it just isn't true. And as far as RCC is concerned, all respect Tom (who is a very stand-up and respected guy) - you don't have to be an exceptional human being or a special case.

    Torah - The Bible - teaches us this.

    Sigh. We need to work on your even handed use of capitalizations. bom

    That sounds like an awfully liberal interpretation of who 'gets in' -so to speak. Someone could be worshiping a golden calf but be pleasant natured and charitable and get in under that standard, correct?

    J-sus is obviously G-d according to the Christian message. So obviously we would need to be saved by J-sus to get to heaven, unless someone is going to argue something along the lines of Pelagianism (the heresy that we save ourselves).

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Yehudah on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:47 pm

    It's not heresy to abide by Torah and get in based on what G-d says. And last I looked, jsus didn't write the Torah or give it misinai.

    If you aren't Jewish, you can still get in.....

    Believe in G-d. Live a good life. Be charitable. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

    Remember, getting in doesn't mean you don't get judged for your transgressions. Nobody is pure, everybody will need to do some time in the purification process before they can learn Torah with Moshe Rabbeinu.


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:06 pm

    Yehudah wrote:It's not heresy to abide by Torah and get in based on what G-d says. And last I looked, jsus didn't write the Torah or give it misinai.

    If you aren't Jewish, you can still get in.....

    Believe in G-d. Live a good life. Be charitable. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

    Remember, getting in doesn't mean you don't get judged for your transgressions. Nobody is pure, everybody will need to do some time in the purification process before they can learn Torah with Moshe Rabbeinu.

    Hmm, I wasn't saying the schematic you described was heresy.

    To be more specific, Pelagianism was the heresy that said that we save ourselves and that G-d plays no role. The Church rejected this as being too extreme. After all, if we save ourselves then we are all gods of a sort, amongst numerous other problems. By affirming that G-d saves you -you participate in this salvation, of course- we are not subordinating G-d's work to our own.

    At the other end of the "Problem Spectrum" we have Calvinism (Presbyterians, Dutch Reformed and certain sects of Baptists) who say that only G-d saves and we have nothing to do with it. He elects and predestines those and 'it is what it is.'


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:01 am

    neoinarien wrote:
    Here is the direct quote from the Catechism (since we are studying this as an academic issue, I would assume this is not an evangelizing effort- I am sure there are many Rabbis who study and discuss different thoughts on ideas).

    "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Chr-st or his Church, but who nevertheless seek G-d with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

    But since everyone who is 'saved' is saved by the Church, ergo, all are saved by the Church.


    The words in bold seem to contradict the teaching that "no man comes to the Father except by me"

    Problem is, we were told through Hosea. "You should have known of no other god since Sinai, since there is not other savior than me."

    Problem with the church's position is, jsus came waaaaay long after Sinai and the Church came even after him


    YOu can imagine when church leaders were trying to convince the Jews at the time that they should accept this new path to salvation ( the church) why they would be somewhat um, skeptical. They were told they needed "mother church" in other words, they needed to get into the "club" so to speak for without being in that special club, Hellfire surely awaited them. When that didn't work, the rack, bonfires and the sword and other instruments of salvation were in order. That's where i start to wonder about exclusion. "Join us or else"


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:48 am

    Arik wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:
    Here is the direct quote from the Catechism (since we are studying this as an academic issue, I would assume this is not an evangelizing effort- I am sure there are many Rabbis who study and discuss different thoughts on ideas).

    "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Chr-st or his Church, but who nevertheless seek G-d with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

    But since everyone who is 'saved' is saved by the Church, ergo, all are saved by the Church.


    The words in bold seem to contradict the teaching that "no man comes to the Father except by me"


    Problem is, we were told through Hosea. "You should have known of no other god since Sinai, since there is not other savior than me."

    Problem with the church's position is, jsus came waaaaay long after Sinai and the Church came even after him


    YOu can imagine when church leaders were trying to convince the Jews at the time that they should accept this new path to salvation ( the church) why they would be somewhat um, skeptical. They were told they needed "mother church" in other words, they needed to get into the "club" so to speak for without being in that special club, Hellfire surely awaited them. When that didn't work, the rack, bonfires and the sword and other instruments of salvation were in order. That's where i start to wonder about exclusion. "Join us or else"


    Addressing the portion in green above.

    A common point to bring up. All those saved are saved by the Church. Since the Church is the vessel of Christ in the world, ergo, what comes through the Church is passing through the Son.

    As to the rest.

    J-sus is not some kind of polytheistic god that just sprang up.( Edited) Also, the Church includes Abraham, Moses, etc, as all being part of the Church. Ancient Israel was the Church.

    So the Church has been around for quite some time. cheers

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:52 am

    G-d never mentioned any "church". You are adding to the Torah


    J-sus is not some kind of polytheistic god that just sprang up


    I beg to differ. Nobody from Sinai until the time he was born has ever heard of him. Moses never heard of him ( he wasn't born yet) neither did Avraham or Sarah. G-d revealed Himself fully at Sinai. If there were in fact any "other" that "other" would likewise have been revealed.
    The fact that he was BORN means simply he was something created. Something created is a form. G-d is not a form and is in fact beyond form. Anything that is a form has a beginning. G-d has no beginning nor end.


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:29 pm

    neoinarien wrote:
    J-sus is obviously G-d according to the Christian message. So obviously we would need to be saved by J-sus to get to heaven, unless someone is going to argue something along the lines of Pelagianism (the heresy that we save ourselves).


    Well even the NT seems to disagree with this assessment.

    JC himself accepted G-d's uniqueness:

    "And he (JC) said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, G-d." (Matthew 19:17).

    How, then, could a mortal man-one who was born and who died on a cross-be a segment of an immortal, indivisible G-d? There is no concept of infinity possible if G-d is a man or a Trinity. The Torah states clearly:

    "G-d is not a man" (Numbers 23:19).

    Clearly jsus didn't just say G-d was good. but made it clear that he was in fact an entirely separate entity from G-d even rebuking someone for calling him "good" because even he seemed to address that only G-d and G-d alone can be called "good" If jsus was G-d, what? he wouldn't think of himself as good?


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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:34 pm

    Arik wrote:G-d never mentioned any "church". You are adding to the Torah


    Hardly. He instituted the priesthood, right? Commissioned (sort of) the Temple? Gave orders for contents, law, sacrifice... that's the brick and mortar of any church.


    J-sus is not some kind of polytheistic god that just sprang up


    I beg to differ. Nobody from Sinai until the time he was born has ever heard of him. Moses never heard of him ( he wasn't born yet) neither did Avraham or Sarah. G-d revealed Himself fully at Sinai. If there were in fact any "other" that "other" would likewise have been revealed.
    The fact that he was BORN means simply he was something created. Something created is a form. G-d is not a form and is in fact beyond form. Anything that is a form has a beginning. G-d has no beginning nor end.

    Naturally, because J-sus had not yet been revealed. Just because angels were not revealed until later does not mean they didn't exist from the get go. Genesis of course says,

    "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image..." at verse 26 while it reads at verse 1-2, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

    That's only the first chapter of Genesis and we have multiple verses supporting the Christian trinitarian dogma.

    As for the 'born' argument, Chr-st the man was born. Chr-st the living G-d was not. Chr-st is both fully man and fully G-d.

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  neoinarien on Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:48 pm

    Arik wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:
    J-sus is obviously G-d according to the Christian message. So obviously we would need to be saved by J-sus to get to heaven, unless someone is going to argue something along the lines of Pelagianism (the heresy that we save ourselves).


    Well even the NT seems to disagree with this assessment.

    JC himself accepted G-d's uniqueness:

    "And he (JC) said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, G-d." (Matthew 19:17).

    How, then, could a mortal man-one who was born and who died on a cross-be a segment of an immortal, indivisible G-d? There is no concept of infinity possible if G-d is a man or a Trinity. The Torah states clearly:

    "G-d is not a man" (Numbers 23:19).

    Clearly jsus didn't just say G-d was good. but made it clear that he was in fact an entirely separate entity from G-d even rebuking someone for calling him "good" because even he seemed to address that only G-d and G-d alone can be called "good" If jsus was G-d, what? he wouldn't think of himself as good?

    Red.

    What translation are you using? That isn't even close to the Greek. Also, you are omitting the 100% crucially important context prompt question that precedes it.

    16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?

    17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, G-d. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    This goes back the Pelagianism discussed before. We cannot save ourselves. Only G-d can 'save' people. It doesn't matter how much time you spend in a soup kitchen: if you don't believe in G-d and keep His commandments, good luck.

    J-sus would not refer to the man who was asking him the question as being good. If anyone can save themselves 100% on their own, then truly we are all gods. Rather, that right, that honor, that distinction is reserved for the one true living G-d.

    -----------------

    Green.

    Again, please be sure to include the context: we're not Protestants! Wink

    Number 23:19
    "19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor as the son of man, that he should be changed. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfill?"

    The verse is simply saying that G-d does not lie. I'm assuming we can agree on the grammatical construction there (not trying to be condescending! I'm just assuming this is very straightforward once the context is included).


    ------------------


    Last edited by neoinarien on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : missed a vowel, my apologies)

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    Re: Christians and exclusivity...

    Post  Arik on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:53 pm

    neoinarien wrote:
    Arik wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:
    J-sus is obviously G-d according to the Christian message. So obviously we would need to be saved by J-sus to get to heaven, unless someone is going to argue something along the lines of Pelagianism (the heresy that we save ourselves).


    Well even the NT seems to disagree with this assessment.

    JC himself accepted G-d's uniqueness:

    "And he (JC) said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, G-d." (Matthew 19:17).

    How, then, could a mortal man-one who was born and who died on a cross-be a segment of an immortal, indivisible G-d? There is no concept of infinity possible if G-d is a man or a Trinity. The Torah states clearly:

    "G-d is not a man" (Numbers 23:19).

    Clearly jsus didn't just say G-d was good. but made it clear that he was in fact an entirely separate entity from G-d even rebuking someone for calling him "good" because even he seemed to address that only G-d and G-d alone can be called "good" If jsus was G-d, what? he wouldn't think of himself as good?

    Red.

    What translation are you using? That isn't even close to the Greek. Also, you are omitting the 100% crucially important context prompt question that precedes it.

    16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?

    17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    This goes back the Pelagianism discussed before. We cannot save ourselves. Only G-d can 'save' people. It doesn't matter how much time you spend in a soup kitchen: if you don't believe in G-d and keep His commandments, good luck.

    J-sus would not refer to the man who was asking him the question as being good. If anyone can save themselves 100% on their own, then truly we are all gods. Rather, that right, that honor, that distinction is reserved for the one true living G-d.

    -----------------

    Green.

    Again, please be sure to include the context: we're not Protestants! Wink

    Number 23:19
    "19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor as the son of man, that he should be changed. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfill?"

    The verse is simply saying that G-d does not lie. I'm assuming we can agree on the grammatical construction there (not trying to be condescending! I'm just assuming this is very straightforward once the context is included).


    ------------------


    Neo,
    I am quoting her from the KJV Matt. 19:17
    "and he said to him, Why callest me thou good? There is none good but one, that is, G_d, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.."

    What? are you telling me now that the Catholic Church is now rejecting the King James??
    Further, what commandments do you think jsus was talking about?


    The verse is simply saying that G-d does not lie.

    No, the verse is saying that G-d is not a man and therefore not capable of behaving like a man not swayed by the things that say man such as lying, etc...


    _________________
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