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    The idea of a "divided" G-d

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    Arik
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    The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Arik on Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:42 am

    ..Or a "trinity" is pretty much debunked through the Propet Isaiah. And The Torah as well, but just some quotes that come to mind...

    Let's see how many times G-d declares his unity in the following chapters alone.


    Chapter 44 Isaiah.

    1 Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen;
    (There's that "servant again" lol)

    2 Thus saith HaShem that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

    3 For I will pour water upon the thirsty land, and streams upon the dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon thy seed, and My blessing upon thine offspring;

    4 And they shall spring up among the grass, as willows by the watercourses.

    5 One shall say: 'I am HaShem'S'; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto HaShem, and surname himself by the name of Israel.

    6 Thus saith HaShem, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer HaShem of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no G-d.


    Isaiah 45:5 I am HaShem, and there is none else, beside Me there is no G-d

    6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am HaShem; and there is none else;

    7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am HaShem, that doeth all these things.

    14 Thus saith HaShem: the labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine; they shall go after thee, in chains they shall come over; and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee: Surely G-d is in thee, and there is none else, there is no other G-d.

    17 O Israel, that art saved by HaShem with an everlasting salvation; ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    (saved by who?)

    18 For thus saith HaShem that created the heavens, He is G-d; that formed the earth and made it, He established it, He created it not a waste, He formed it to be inhabited: I am HaShem, and there is none else.


    21 Declare ye, and bring them near, yea, let them take counsel together: Who hath announced this from ancient time, and declared it of old? Have not I HaShem? And there is no G-d else beside Me, a just G-d and a Saviour; there is none beside Me.

    22 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am G-d, and there is none else

    24 Only in HaShem, shall one say of Me, is victory and strength; even to Him shall men come in confusion, all they that were incensed against Him.

    25 In HaShem shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    Chapter 46:

    3 Hearken unto Me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, that are borne by Me from the birth, that are carried from the womb:

    4 Even to old age I am the same, and even to hoar hairs will I carry you; I have made, and I will bear; yea, I will carry, and will deliver.

    5 To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?

    8 Remember this, and stand fast; bring it to mind, O ye transgressors.

    9 Remember the former things of old: that I am G-d, and there is none else; I am G-d, and there is none like Me;

    8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from of old thine ear was not opened; for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

    9 For My name's sake will I defer Mine anger, and for My praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

    10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not as silver; I have tried thee in the furnace of affliction.

    11 For Mine own sake, for Mine own sake, will I do it; for how should it be profaned? And My glory will I not give to another.

    12 Hearken unto Me, O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He; I am the first, I also am the last.

    Go ye forth from Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye: 'The HaShem hath redeemed His servant Jacob.

    25 But thus saith HaShem: even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered; and I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.

    26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I HaShem am thy Saviour, and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.


    (Who is this suffering "servant" again?)

    G-d is not just saying there is no other "god" but no other period. There is no other "savior" of Israel. There is no mention of a b*ddah, a krshna, a jsus, nothing and nobody besides G-d or equal to.
    How many times can "one" mean two or more in the minds of idolaters?


    O Israel, that art saved by HaShem[/I] with an everlasting salvation; ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


    It doesn't read Israel will be saved but that Israel is saved and this salvation is an everlasting one. Only in the mind of idolaters is everlasting equal temporary and one equals two.
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    Philip

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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Philip on Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:34 am

    Being a former Christian myself... I have to say that these verses don't make a difference to the mind and reasoning of a christian. They are under a Blindness of sorts. Brainwashing is very powerful and when they are taught very young to believe that 3=1, it takes nearly a miracle to undo. For me it was a gradual process and a confession that I don't understand anything and that God gave HIS Torah and revelation to the Jews and not the Goyim. I prayed that God reveal Himself to me and to help me UNLEARN all foolishness that was crammed into my young skull. One by one the lies were exposed and the Truth of Torah was made plain to me as I studied the Sages and read my Chumash and Tanakh. NOW i look at Christianity as idolotrous. I can clearly see the attempts of these blind men trying to describe colors. Shema Yisrael, Hashem Eloheinu, Hashem Echad!
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Arik on Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:02 am

    While i really like your post Phillip, the thing to remember is just as you yourself have come to the truth and have rejected Xtianity, so may others well come to the Truth of Torah. So when you said:

    Being a former Christian myself... I have to say that these verses don't make a difference to the mind and reasoning of a christian.


    I find that somewhat contradictory. You will be correct about 98% of the time. But there is that other 2% who truly want to find the truth and somewhere deep in their hearts, they know there is more to G-d's Torah than they were ever taught or exposed to.
    Obviously those words meant something to you, and that is why you have embraced Torah. So we can always hope and pray that others likewise, will find meaning in G-d's words.
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Philip on Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:52 pm

    Yeah, that is Contradictory I guess.... I was an exception to the rule along with others of my online friends who have converted. But I have shown Black and white words of historical proof about the invention of Christianity and the contradictions and errors in the New Testament to family and friends and their minds shut down. Its just TOO SCARY for them to come out of the Matrix. They refer back to a dream or vision or some answered prayer and they say that proves they are right no matter what they read in the Torah or historical articles. Its hard to accept one's whole life was Idolatry. One's family for generations back was lied to. I had to Hang onto the REAL ROCK of Israel, Hashem, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to maintain sanity. The Matrix is real... but it is not computerized.... it is a societal grid of lies about everything under the sun.
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    Arik
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Arik on Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:50 am

    Well a big part of the problem comes with the fear factor that always comes with teaching Xtianity. Teach young children about how they MUST believe that jsus is literally the "son of G-d" and that we must serve HIM (as opposed to serving the G-d who created the universe) or they will spend eternity screaming in agony in a fiery "hell" is a real motivator. Start teaching this kind of garbage to children from a young age and it is something that often will keep them from letting go of their idol.

    A rabbi once told me that he was working with a woman who wanted to convert from xtianity to Judaism. After working with her for over a year he finally asked her: "where are we going with this?"
    She finally admitted that despite the fact that she believed in Judaism and agreed with everything the rabbi said, she couldn't get past the fear that if she totally gave up on jsus that she would go to "hell"

    Sad.
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Philip on Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:52 pm

    Yes... it is an insidious clever device to keep the Christians in line.... even if they don't follow faithfully, it will certainly keep them from converting to another religion.

    I woke up to the idea of "how could God treat human beings WORSE than the Nazis treated the Jews?" Think about how Hell is taught and what little sins could get you cast into it! Why would I serve a god like that? Because I don't believe a in man with very little real documentation on his life who has not been around for two thousand years is not god....and this unbelief is gonna get me thrown into a pit of fire with Demons? Come on!!! That would CERTAINLY make god worse than Hitler! It is not the act of a Just God, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. To my knowledge... this requirement for a belief in who the messiah is has never been a condition for being a good Jew or attaining a portion in Olam Haba in Judaism EVER! It has been a religious membership retention invention and mind control device created by the Christians. I think the Muslims pretty much use the same technique except they go a step further and require your death in this world as well lol!
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Arik on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:53 pm

    Well, the picture that many and not just xtians like to paint is that the "G-d of the Old testament" is an angry, punishing, bloodthirsty judge, who is always ready to kill, maim and destroy, that comes from total ignorance of the Hebrew bible and "proof texting"
    With such a picture, then people somehow find jsus, in contrast to be more "loving" and "forgiving" and easy going.
    A nice alternative to those who don't know any better

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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  walker on Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:21 pm

    G_d doesn't change although our understanding of him does. The G_d of the Torah is just as just and forgiving as in the NT. The doctrine of hell is controversial, even among christians. So little is said about it that not everyone agrees. I do know this, if we spend more time getting to know G_d
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Yehudah on Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:45 am

    walker wrote:G_d doesn't change although our understanding of him does. The G_d of the Torah is just as just and forgiving as in the NT. The doctrine of hell is controversial, even among christians. So little is said about it that not everyone agrees. I do know this, if we spend more time getting to know G_d

    Yup.... we need to study and understand what is expected of us. Torah education (Learning about our Creator) is paramount in ones life.



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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  steve87 on Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:28 pm

    I'm just going to go ahead and say I'm Pentecostal, so I'm pretty ignorant concerning Jewish beliefs. Be patient with my ignorant question, but what do Jews generally believe in regards to the afterlife, and does it look different for the righteous than for the unrighteous?
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Yehudah on Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:24 pm

    Welcome to the forum Steve.

    We've discussed this a few times - please use the search function or start a new thread.

    On your last question: Yes.

    The Righteous will have a share in Heaven, while the Evil will not (at least until they spend the requisite amount of time in gehinnom). Although, there are Evil ones who won't even get to go to Gehinnom.


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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  steve87 on Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:44 pm

    I apologize - I figured it would be on topic with your discussion of Christian views of the afterlife. So does the same idea of eternal suffering exist for the Evil ones in Judaism as it does for the Evil ones in Christianity, or is Judaism more tolerant? Being ignorant of Judaism, my view of Gehinnom is from Jesus' teachings when He refers to it as the "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9).
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Yehudah on Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:08 pm

    For us, hell doesn't exist; but gehinnom does. Gehinnom, depending on who you poskim, is a place for taharah before we can come to shamayim. We have to be purified first.

    Rashaim don't have it so "easy".

    There is a gemarah in Chagiggah that talks about Ezekiels prophesy about ma'ase merkavah. The navi talks about the Ophanim and the fire that streams from them. Rashi (and Tosofos I think) explain that the fire streaming from the Ophanim are their perspiration, and it is directed towards the roshei rashaim in gehinnom.

    So the evil ones in gehinnom have it tough, while the less righteous (like us) will get some pre-shamayim purification.

    Hope I didn't muddy your water!


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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Arik on Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:37 pm

    Welcome to the forums Steve, Looking forward to your participation. Basketball

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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  steve87 on Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:39 pm

    Well that's really interesting after looking up the transliterated Hebrew words and reading Ezekiel 1. Do any of the Evil ones go through ETERNAL suffering though? And the word "hell" is only an English translation of the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic term which is equivalent to the Hebrew "Gehinnom". (Much language transfer haha)
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Arik on Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:47 pm

    No, we have no eternal "Hell" Our Father is not a sadist, he doesn't enjoy torturing people, he doesnt even take pleasure in the wicked person's death. (Ezekiel 18)

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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  steve87 on Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:53 pm

    I apologize. I did not mean to attack your Father by the question. It's very interesting then that the most Evil of men, according to your beliefs, could in theory go through enough refinement to redeem himself even after physical death. That's awesome.
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    Arik
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    Re: The idea of a "divided" G-d

    Post  Arik on Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:54 pm

    steve87 wrote:I apologize. I did not mean to attack your Father by the question. It's very interesting then that the most Evil of men, according to your beliefs, could in theory go through enough refinement to redeem himself even after physical death. That's awesome.

    No need to apologize, I didn't think it was meant as an attack on G-d. Just asnwering questions. Cool

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