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    So I am at the bank today....

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    Yehudah

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Yehudah on Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:46 pm

    neoinarien wrote:No questions, and that was my exact understanding.

    When a Catholic bows to a statue he is honoring G-d by recognizing the glory of His works.

    The difference is we don't bow to people, or effigies of people. That is the part that is considered idolatous in the Torah. It doesn't matter if you have in your mind to pray to G-d while you are bowing to picture or statue, you are paying some sort of homage or honor to someone other than G-d while you are praying.

    Wouldn't it be easier, albeit safer, to not do that?


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    Arik
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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Arik on Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:27 pm

    neoinarien wrote:
    Yehudah wrote:So you are comparing your praying to saints and their effigies to us praying AT the Western Wall?

    stretching it just a tad

    We don't daven at the Wall as a means of praying TO it... it's the last vestage of our Holiest Site... huge difference. It is the last place where G-d rested His shechinah.

    get out of self defense mode Tom... saying things just to say them isn't working.

    Yehudah,

    Arik said that one cannot bow or show respect to objects/places.

    It is clear, that Jews do this in abundance.

    Am I wrong?

    We are not allowed to make any images male or female or of any likeness for the purpose of bowing to it or praying to it.
    G-d's word, not mine.

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:25 am

    Look at Exodus 26:1. In G-d’s commands to Moses concerning the taber nacle, given just a few chapters after the giving of the Ten Commandments, is this instruction: “Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains woven of fine linen thread, and blue and purple and scarlet yarn; with artistic designs of cherubim you shall weave them.”

    A similar command with respect to the Ark of the Covenant instructed Moses to have two cherubim of hammered gold at the ends of the mercy seat. G-d said, “And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, of all things which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel” (Exodus 25:22). Here are images directly connected with the presence of G-d, and commanded by Him.

    Abraham bowed down to the sons of Hamor, men who had neither faith nor knowledge of G-d, when he bought the double cave intended to become a tomb. Jacob bowed to the ground before Esau, his brother, and also before the tip of his son Joseph’s staff. He bowed down, but he did not adore. Joshua, the son of Nun, and Daniel bowed in veneration before an angel of G-d, but they did not adore him.*

    A major distinction is made between adoration or worship and honor or veneration. Worship is reserved only for G-d. Honor and veneration are given more broadly, a different matter entirely. Christians honor and venerate, but do not worship Saints, icons and the like (as we use worship today in English).

    I agree Yehudah: one approaches potentially problematic ground if someone is mislead or completely misinformed. At the same time, if properly conducted, it can be an immensely beneficial tool for the Christian (though there are many things in religion where, if done improperly, could have tremendously negative impact).

    At the same time though, by honoring the acts of G-d in certain beings, by venerating how G-d continued to reveal Himself to us through them, we actually worship G-d while honoring the individual.


    *
    [(removed due to rule violation. Please refrain from attaching links to Xtian sites on this forum

    Edit: I just wanted to mention that far more can be said about this from a purely Christian perspective, however, I'm trying not to broaden our horizons on this until the discussion naturally flows there.

    Also edited to modify some spellings to G-d. And edited again for this too.


    Last edited by Arik S. on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:00 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : see edit explanation above)
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    Arik
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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Arik on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:58 am

    neoinarien wrote:Look at Exodus 26:1. In G-d’s commands to Moses concerning the taber nacle, given just a few chapters after the giving of the Ten Commandments, is this instruction: “Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains woven of fine linen thread, and blue and purple and scarlet yarn; with artistic designs of cherubim you shall weave them.”

    A similar command with respect to the Ark of the Covenant instructed Moses to have two cherubim of hammered gold at the ends of the mercy seat. G-d said, “And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, of all things which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel” (Exodus 25:22). Here are images directly connected with the presence of G-d, and commanded by Him.

    Abraham bowed down to the sons of Hamor, men who had neither faith nor knowledge of G-d, when he bought the double cave intended to become a tomb. Jacob bowed to the ground before Esau, his brother, and also before the tip of his son Joseph’s staff. He bowed down, but he did not adore. Joshua, the son of Nun, and Daniel bowed in veneration before an angel of G-d, but they did not adore him.*

    A major distinction is made between adoration or worship and honor or veneration. Worship is reserved only for G-d. Honor and veneration are given more broadly, a different matter entirely. Christians honor and venerate, but do not worship Saints, icons and the like (as we use worship today in English).

    I agree Yehudah: one approaches potentially problematic ground if someone is mislead or completely misinformed. At the same time, if properly conducted, it can be an immensely beneficial tool for the Christian (though there are many things in religion where, if done improperly, could have tremendously negative impact).

    At the same time though, by honoring the acts of G-d in certain beings, by venerating how G-d continued to reveal Himself to us through them, we actually worship G-d while honoring the individual.



    Edit: I just wanted to mention that far more can be said about this from a purely Christian perspective, however, I'm trying not to broaden our horizons on this until the discussion naturally flows there.

    Also edited to modify some spellings to G-d. And edited again for this too.

    The prohobition against images was suspended in the verses you cited because G-d himself. gave an order to actually make them. In addition to the cherubim, there were images of a lion, an eagle, an ox, thus it contains the four images that Ezekiel saw in his vision of G-d's Throne of Glory.
    At no time however were the Jews instructed to worhip, pray to, bow down to or otherwise perform any acts of "worship" toward the cherubim. Moreover the one time commandment to make the cherubim was a once and done thing, afterwards we were no longer allowed to make any such images of them.

    Abraham bowing to Hamor again is a broad stretch to try and justify people kneeling down and praying before images. In those days, a man would bow to a person to show respect. I think it takes just a little common sense to differentiate between the two. Moses went to Goshen to pray because he wouldn't pray in the presence of the idols in Egypt and therefore wouldn't risk being accused of idol worship. That is how serious it is taken by us both then and now.
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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Arik on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:08 pm

    neoinarien wrote:
    At the same time though, by honoring the acts of G-d in certain beings, by venerating how G-d continued to reveal Himself to us through them, we actually worship G-d while honoring the individual.


    *

    And such is the very nature of idolatry. even in the times of Noah, people would often begin to "Honor" and "venerate" the heavenly bodies, the sun, the moon, the plants, etc..in their minds, those were the Emissaries of Hashem and therefore when people honored those things, they believed they were honoring Hashem. Unfortunately, those things led people to eventually worship those beings outright leading into a path of Idolatry that we still have to this day. That is why the Torah forbids any such thing such as applying anything "G-d like" to people or objects.
    Are you trying to tell me that Catholics don't pray to saints?

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:11 pm

    Arik S. wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:
    At the same time though, by honoring the acts of G-d in certain beings, by venerating how G-d continued to reveal Himself to us through them, we actually worship G-d while honoring the individual.


    *

    And such is the very nature of idolatry. even in the times of Noah, people would often begin to "Honor" and "venerate" the heavenly bodies, the sun, the moon, the plants, etc..in their minds, those were the Emissaries of Hashem and therefore when people honored those things, they believed they were honoring Hashem. Unfortunately, those things led people to eventually worship those beings outright leading into a path of Idolatry that we still have to this day. That is why the Torah forbids any such thing such as applying anything "G-d like" to people or objects.
    Are you trying to tell me that Catholics don't pray to saints?

    Ahh, praying to Saints for intercession with G-d is very different than worshipping them. No one though worships a saint as a G-d.

    Arik, I would think that now about 2,000 years on that if your slippery slope argument were to take place that it already would have.

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:15 pm

    Arik S. wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:Look at Exodus 26:1. In G-d’s commands to Moses concerning the taber nacle, given just a few chapters after the giving of the Ten Commandments, is this instruction: “Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains woven of fine linen thread, and blue and purple and scarlet yarn; with artistic designs of cherubim you shall weave them.”

    A similar command with respect to the Ark of the Covenant instructed Moses to have two cherubim of hammered gold at the ends of the mercy seat. G-d said, “And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, of all things which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel” (Exodus 25:22). Here are images directly connected with the presence of G-d, and commanded by Him.

    Abraham bowed down to the sons of Hamor, men who had neither faith nor knowledge of G-d, when he bought the double cave intended to become a tomb. Jacob bowed to the ground before Esau, his brother, and also before the tip of his son Joseph’s staff. He bowed down, but he did not adore. Joshua, the son of Nun, and Daniel bowed in veneration before an angel of G-d, but they did not adore him.*

    A major distinction is made between adoration or worship and honor or veneration. Worship is reserved only for G-d. Honor and veneration are given more broadly, a different matter entirely. Christians honor and venerate, but do not worship Saints, icons and the like (as we use worship today in English).

    I agree Yehudah: one approaches potentially problematic ground if someone is mislead or completely misinformed. At the same time, if properly conducted, it can be an immensely beneficial tool for the Christian (though there are many things in religion where, if done improperly, could have tremendously negative impact).

    At the same time though, by honoring the acts of G-d in certain beings, by venerating how G-d continued to reveal Himself to us through them, we actually worship G-d while honoring the individual.



    Edit: I just wanted to mention that far more can be said about this from a purely Christian perspective, however, I'm trying not to broaden our horizons on this until the discussion naturally flows there.

    Also edited to modify some spellings to G-d. And edited again for this too.

    The prohobition against images was suspended in the verses you cited because G-d himself. gave an order to actually make them. In addition to the cherubim, there were images of a lion, an eagle, an ox, thus it contains the four images that Ezekiel saw in his vision of G-d's Throne of Glory.
    At no time however were the Jews instructed to worhip, pray to, bow down to or otherwise perform any acts of "worship" toward the cherubim. Moreover the one time commandment to make the cherubim was a once and done thing, afterwards we were no longer allowed to make any such images of them.

    Abraham bowing to Hamor again is a broad stretch to try and justify people kneeling down and praying before images. In those days, a man would bow to a person to show respect. I think it takes just a little common sense to differentiate between the two. Moses went to Goshen to pray because he wouldn't pray in the presence of the idols in Egypt and therefore wouldn't risk being accused of idol worship. That is how serious it is taken by us both then and now.

    The prohibition against images was not suspended: it was given further explanation.

    And at no time are Christians instructed to worship images.

    Yes: people used to bow and kneel to show respect. They still do (Obama included...)!

    Idols are objects that people ascribe godlike (forgive my ignorance: but is it appropriate to say, 'godlike' as opposed to g-dlike?) or supernatural powers to, separate from G-d. That is not what is going on with the RCC.
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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Arik on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:16 pm

    neoinarien wrote:
    Ahh, praying to Saints for intercession with G-d is very different than worshipping them. No one though worships a saint as a G-d.

    Arik, I would think that now about 2,000 years on that if your slippery slope argument were to take place that it already would have.

    Why would you feel the need to pray to someone or something else other than G-d? what? You think G-d is incapable of hearing you Himself?? You think he needs intersession? Or maybe He cannot answer prayers alone?
    Think about what you are saying.

    The slippery slope has happened. People now worship nature. they worship dead men, they worship self proclaimed "holy men" Idolatry hasn't changed much. the whole "New age" thing isn't new anymore than worshiping or putting your trust in a dead "savior" is new. All just repackaged Avodah Zara.

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:26 pm

    Arik S. wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:
    Ahh, praying to Saints for intercession with G-d is very different than worshipping them. No one though worships a saint as a G-d.

    Arik, I would think that now about 2,000 years on that if your slippery slope argument were to take place that it already would have.

    Why would you feel the need to pray to someone or something else other than G-d? what? You think G-d is incapable of hearing you Himself?? You think he needs intersession? Or maybe He cannot answer prayers alone?
    Think about what you are saying.

    Of course. But have you ever asked for others to pray for you? Have others offered to pray for you?

    The slippery slope has happened. People now worship nature. they worship dead men, they worship self proclaimed "holy men" Idolatry hasn't changed much. the whole "New age" thing isn't new anymore than worshiping or putting your trust in a dead "savior" is new. All just repackaged Avodah Zara.

    I don't see how new age paganism can be laid at the feed of Christianity. There have always been cults and these groups can certainly be grouped as cults.

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    Yehudah

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Yehudah on Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:00 pm

    We ask people to pray for us all the time. That isn't problematic, the Kohen Gadol, the Sheliach Zibur prayed/prays for the community every day, 3 times a day. Aaron did it, so did his sons. The avodas Hashem requires us to pray for others more than ourselves.

    So I don't see a problem with that.

    As far as laying paganism at the feet of chrstianity is concerned.... I don't think we can really do that. There were pagans and avodah zarah before matan Torah.


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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:10 pm

    Yehudah wrote:We ask people to pray for us all the time. That isn't problematic, the Kohen Gadol, the Sheliach Zibur prayed/prays for the community every day, 3 times a day. Aaron did it, so did his sons. The avodas Hashem requires us to pray for others more than ourselves.

    So I don't see a problem with that.

    As far as laying paganism at the feet of chrstianity is concerned.... I don't think we can really do that. There were pagans and avodah zarah before matan Torah.

    Excellent!

    Praying to saints is the same as asking others to pray for us. The thinking goes, according to the Church we know they are in heaven (hence the saint part) and who better to pray for us than someone in heaven?

    I realize this isn't quite the same as asking a neighbor to pray, but there is the rationale behind it.

    I'm glad we agree on the slippery slope argument as well.

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Snapper2 on Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:01 pm

    I've got a question concerning praying to or asking people that have passed on pray in our behalf. First if you do practice this, arent you counting on them being with G-d? And if they arent, what have you done? And how would this differ from King Saul talking to Samuel after he was dead? Prayer should be asking G-d for His will to be done on earth as it is in His domain. G-d doesnt force His will on earth. People cant force His will. But they can agree with Him on His will on earth.How can anyone not on earth know what to pray for except G-d. Just my thoughts on the matter.

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:43 pm

    Snapper2 wrote:I've got a question concerning praying to or asking people that have passed on pray in our behalf. First if you do practice this, arent you counting on them being with G-d? And if they arent, what have you done? And how would this differ from King Saul talking to Samuel after he was dead? Prayer should be asking G-d for His will to be done on earth as it is in His domain. G-d doesnt force His will on earth. People cant force His will. But they can agree with Him on His will on earth.How can anyone not on earth know what to pray for except G-d. Just my thoughts on the matter.

    First off: Welcome to the forum! You should start a thread in the meet and greet area.

    As to your question...

    Again, from a Roman Catholic/Orthodox perspective: the only people who are asked to intercede/pray for us who are dead are Saints. To be a Saint, the Church must have declared that this person is in heaven (presumptuous to an outsider: I understand, but that's besides the point for here and now).

    Ergo, if they are in heaven, then they are closer to G-d... I'm sure you can see how the rest slides into place.

    But it is a good question!
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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Arik on Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:24 am

    neoinarien wrote:
    [color=green]

    I don't see how new age paganism can be laid at the feed of Christianity. There have always been cults and these groups can certainly be grouped as cults.

    [/quote]

    I never said it was actually i would say it is the other way around since Xtianity adopts a lot of it's ideas from Paganism.

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:12 am

    Arik S. wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:
    [color=green]

    I don't see how new age paganism can be laid at the feed of Christianity. There have always been cults and these groups can certainly be grouped as cults.


    I never said it was actually i would say it is the other way around since Xtianity adopts a lot of it's ideas from Paganism.[/quote]


    Three things.

    1) Your above point has nothing really to do with your original point. Your original point was a slippery slope argument, which now you appear to be utterly abandoning.

    2) I'd be happy to discuss possible pagan-Christian connections.

    3) I'd also be happy to discuss possible pagan-Jewish connections (I have more than a few credits during my theology degree that relates to the founding of Israel and Judaism, most of which were taught by Jewish theologians/rabbis).
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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Arik on Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:43 am

    neoinarien wrote:

    Three things.

    1) Your above point has nothing really to do with your original point. Your original point was a slippery slope argument, which now you appear to be utterly abandoning.

    .

    I am not abandoning it. my response was:


    And such is the very nature of idolatry. even in the times of Noah, people would often begin to "Honor" and "venerate" the heavenly bodies, the sun, the moon, the plants, etc..in their minds, those were the Emissaries of Hashem and therefore when people honored those things, they believed they were honoring Hashem. Unfortunately, those things led people to eventually worship those beings outright leading into a path of Idolatry that we still have to this day. That is why the Torah forbids any such thing such as applying anything "G-d like" to people or objects.

    If you have doubts about that I refer you to Rambam in Avodas Kochavim 1:1-2..

    Genesis 4:26 Enosh introduced idolatry which became a blight to mankind to this day by ascribing G-dlike qualities to man and to lifeless objects. They created the abominable situation in which to call in the name of Hashem become profaned."

    The above mentioned things still happen to this day. I am not sure exactly what problem you have with that.
    scratch scratch

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:44 pm

    Arik S. wrote:
    neoinarien wrote:

    Three things.

    1) Your above point has nothing really to do with your original point. Your original point was a slippery slope argument, which now you appear to be utterly abandoning.

    .

    I am not abandoning it. my response was:


    And such is the very nature of idolatry. even in the times of Noah, people would often begin to "Honor" and "venerate" the heavenly bodies, the sun, the moon, the plants, etc..in their minds, those were the Emissaries of Hashem and therefore when people honored those things, they believed they were honoring Hashem. Unfortunately, those things led people to eventually worship those beings outright leading into a path of Idolatry that we still have to this day. That is why the Torah forbids any such thing such as applying anything "G-d like" to people or objects.

    If you have doubts about that I refer you to Rambam in Avodas Kochavim 1:1-2..

    Genesis 4:26 Enosh introduced idolatry which became a blight to mankind to this day by ascribing G-dlike qualities to man and to lifeless objects. They created the abominable situation in which to call in the name of Hashem become profaned."

    The above mentioned things still happen to this day. I am not sure exactly what problem you have with that.
    scratch scratch

    I agree: it still happens today. People create false idols and worship them as G-d. Your example talks about worshiping nature, this is not the same thing that Catholics/Orthodox do.

    No one is attributing G-dlike qualities to any idol or person. Much like you are not attributing G-dlike qualities to the West Wall. Rather, you recognize the connection it has to G-d. The same is true in Christianity.
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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Yehudah on Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:54 pm

    Okay, for the record Tom, I'm buying your point.

    And for the record Snapper (hey howdy btw), when Saul HaMelech talked to Shmuel, wasn't he trying to get advice on how to do battle with the Pilishtim?

    Saul knew that he was not going to be king any longer, Shmuel told him this earlier. So in this case while I see your point, I think it isn't exactly what we are talking about. Saul wasn't praying to Shmuel, or asking him to intercede in heaven for him... he was asking him for battle advice. (See Shmuel I 28:16)


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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:48 pm

    Yehudah wrote:Okay, for the record Tom, I'm buying your point.

    And for the record Snapper (hey howdy btw), when Saul HaMelech talked to Shmuel, wasn't he trying to get advice on how to do battle with the Pilishtim?

    Saul knew that he was not going to be king any longer, Shmuel told him this earlier. So in this case while I see your point, I think it isn't exactly what we are talking about. Saul wasn't praying to Shmuel, or asking him to intercede in heaven for him... he was asking him for battle advice. (See Shmuel I 28:16)

    Thanks!

    To the best of my knowledge, I otherwise have nothing to respond to in this post.

    cheers
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    Philip

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Philip on Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:51 pm

    Prayer is a form of communication and communication with the dead is called Necromancy. Prayer to the dead is a form of Necromancy whether it is done by a Christian or a Jew. Some Jews pray to their dead Rebbes . One does not know the ultimate disposition of those who are departed and to pray to them is foolish. Who is one praying to really? Christians who pray to the dead are PRESUMING that these so called Saints are in Heaven.... same for the dead Rebbes. How foolish one would feel if it were discovered that a Dead Saint was in actuality a pedophile and that all their prayers over the years to this dead person had been directed towards Hell.. or where ever... One never truly knows where the dead are .... but we Know that Hashem... the Eternal One, is able to hear our prayers and determine the needed answer.

    Bypass the middleman and go to the Boss.

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:00 pm

    Philip wrote:Prayer is a form of communication and communication with the dead is called Necromancy. Prayer to the dead is a form of Necromancy whether it is done by a Christian or a Jew. Some Jews pray to their dead Rebbes . One does not know the ultimate disposition of those who are departed and to pray to them is foolish. Who is one praying to really? Christians who pray to the dead are PRESUMING that these so called Saints are in Heaven.... same for the dead Rebbes. How foolish one would feel if it were discovered that a Dead Saint was in actuality a pedophile and that all their prayers over the years to this dead person had been directed towards Hell.. or where ever... One never truly knows where the dead are .... but we Know that Hashem... the Eternal One, is able to hear our prayers and determine the needed answer.

    Bypass the middleman and go to the Boss.

    True, though the distinction here is that the Church teaches that a few people are in heaven (I think forum rules prohibit me from quoting any New Testament text, suffice to say, it has something to do about the keys of heaven being bestowed to St. Peter).

    Now you may disagree with this theology, in fact I expect you to, but it doesn't change that the theology exists (right or wrong). Assuming that Christians believe this, it therefore gets by the whole 'praying to the dead' part as only Saints are the targets of prayers (or G-d).
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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Philip on Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:21 pm

    Neo, I know Christians don't think of their prayers to the dead as being necromancy and the suggestion that their prayers were in fact a form of it would appall them no doubt but if one is not sure.... even the slightest doubt as to whom one's prayers are directed to, then why not give it up and pray only to the Supreme, All powerful, All knowing, Creative Being? Why submit prayers to a creature?

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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  neoinarien on Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:29 pm

    Philip wrote:Neo, I know Christians don't think of their prayers to the dead as being necromancy and the suggestion that their prayers were in fact a form of it would appall them no doubt but if one is not sure.... even the slightest doubt as to whom one's prayers are directed to, then why not give it up and pray only to the Supreme, All powerful, All knowing, Creative Being? Why submit prayers to a creature?

    Well, you're probably expecting me to disagree, but guess what: I'm not!

    Of course the Church teaching is taught to be inerrant (convenient, right?), so therefore we can kick to the curb the beyond a reasonable doubt portion.

    But G-d hears everything right? And it's good to request people to pray for us? Well, I'm sure you can complete the thought.
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    Arik
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    Re: So I am at the bank today....

    Post  Arik on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:32 pm

    Bump.


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